When did this become acceptable?

[Keiichi]

@Sneed

I'm not addressing tactical considerations; rather Muskrat's cultural prescription.

We as a community should always be working to normalize the presence of firearms in everyday life, and to diminish the fear and suspicion that is the source of distrust at the mere presence of a firearm. That's what I'm addressing. The more progress we make in that effort, the less likely for there to be the kind of tactical issues that exist simply walking through a Walmart with a slung rifle. The more the open carry stigma is reduced, the more reasonable people will open carry and be comfortable seeing it, and the less correct you'll be about the intentions of individuals who do so today.

[Sneed]

@Sneed

I'm not addressing tactical considerations; rather Muskrat's cultural prescription.

We as a community should always be working to normalize the presence of firearms in everyday life, and to diminish the fear and suspicion that is the source of distrust at the mere presence of a firearm. That's what I'm addressing. The more progress we make in that effort, the less likely for there to be the kind of tactical issues that exist simply walking through a Walmart with a slung rifle. The more the open carry stigma is reduced, the more reasonable people will open carry and be comfortable seeing it, and the less correct you'll be about the intentions of individuals who do so today.

I get that and conceptually agree HOWEVER it seems to me it just won't work and will have the opposite effect - as it seems to be doing. In the twenty first century in what's left of the U.S. open carry will never become normalized outside of rural areas. Of course I've been wrong before but I don't think so this time. (I didn't think so the other times either, so there's that.)

[BEEMER!]

@Sneed

I'm not addressing tactical considerations; rather Muskrat's cultural prescription.

We as a community should always be working to normalize the presence of firearms in everyday life, and to diminish the fear and suspicion that is the source of distrust at the mere presence of a firearm. That's what I'm addressing. The more progress we make in that effort, the less likely for there to be the kind of tactical issues that exist simply walking through a Walmart with a slung rifle. The more the open carry stigma is reduced, the more reasonable people will open carry and be comfortable seeing it, and the less correct you'll be about the intentions of individuals who do so today.

I get that and conceptually agree HOWEVER it seems to me it just won't work and will have the opposite effect - as it seems to be doing. In the twenty first century in what's left of the U.S. open carry will never become normalized outside of rural areas. Of course I've been wrong before but I don't think so this time. (I didn't think so the other times either, so there's that.)

I agree with Sneed.

[Keiichi]

It won't happen immediately, for sure; I believe it's extremely important to reframe conversations like this one as a start, which is my goal here - staying civil in doing so, which I think we have been.

With the way education has been and will continue to be disrupted in the near-term I think a great place to focus on is reintroducing firearms safety education in junior high and high school, along with hunting safety and expanding shooting sports.

[Kenk]

Speaking of education, in Minnesota, Trap and Skeet is only second to football when it comes to high school sports  😀

http://mnclaytarget.com/2015/05/05/minnesotas-second-popular-hs-sport-trap-shooting-believe/

[Keiichi]

Yep, and last I read it's been by far the fastest growing high school sport. Very encouraging.

[Muskrat]

To be clear...I do not believe the unfettered open cary of firearms in civil society is conducive to building or maintaining a safe, secure, cohesive society, nor do I think it has any possible connection to skeet shooting, pheasant hunting, USPSA competitions or any other legitimate firearm recreation or self defense application. I am opposed to open carry in urban settings, and think that people who feel threatened or suspicious or uncomfortable around individuals who open cary are not wrong...they're spot on. I see open cary as not only bad tactics, but bad manners, and ultimately corrosive to gun ownership in this country. I do not see it as making anyone safer or more secure or normalizing firearms for people who are not enthusiasts, but rather just the opposite.

As I mentioned in my first post, I've lived in communities where virtually everyone carries a gun, all the time, everywhere. I did not find them to be places I wanted to live, and I do not want this country to become one of them. I do not want to live in a society where someone carrying a slung rifle though walmart is anything but alarming. I do not support building a society where that behavior is considered in any way normal.

This is all my opinion of course, and I respect that other perfectly intelligent and balanced people will have different opinions...including people who don't think there should be any guns at all. But I think it's incumbent on gun owners who believe as I do to speak up and not to be bullied by those who will say that if you're not 100% pro-gun in any conceivable circumstance, then you must be anti-gun.

I'm 100% for the responsible ownership of firearms, and 100% against irresponsible ownership. I do not see open cary in our nations towns and cities as responsible, and I am suspicious of the motives and/or maturity of people who believe that it is. I will stand against open cary in the public places of our country (especially the open cary of long guns) just as I will stand for personal gun ownership and the right of self defense. I think that more gun owners and CCW carriers who feel the same need to stand up and be heard, rather than be cowed by the fear that any support for reasonable gun disciplines will somehow result in the annihilation of all gun rights and the subsequent enslavement of the citizenry.

Lastly, I would like to complement the people who have been involved in this conversation for their civility. It is admirable and speaks well of this community.

[Kenk]

Thanks Muskrat, I'm confident this has been a learning experience for all involved, as it has helped me to better understand many of these points better...Thank you!

[Rick R]

When exactly did it become acceptable for people to parade in public with long guns and chest rigs loaded with high-capacity magazines? This makes no sense to me.

The trend started in Lexington Massachusetts around April 19, 1775.  The British were attempting to disarm some cheeky colonials who were open carrying MUSKETS!

FWIW I don't "open carry" and didn't do it when I was a plain clothes LEO in a tech field where I wore a polo and 5.11 pants most days.  I threw a jacket, vest or button up shirt on when I went out in public.  IMHO Marching into Starbucks with a slung AK is asinine.  However, an organized multi-cultural group peacefully showing the VA Legislature that they are displeased about pending infringements might have brought a smile to the Founding Fathers faces.  Like all things in life there times to be discreet and times to convince people who are trying to do you harm that you are capable of starting a ruckus.

The only rational reaction to seeing heavily armed people in public is to arm yourself with equal weaponry. To me, that feels a lot like the start of a second civil war.

The Libs have had a take over in their playbook since the 60's.  They believe it is now or never and are using violence to try to re-make America.  I believe we are in fact in a cold civil war, what keeps them from turning up the heat is that they don't know if the middle of the country will fish or cut bait.

[Mike D]

It's amazing to me that even the gun community has been indoctrinated to think our guns should be kept hidden.


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[Mike D]

@Sneed

I'm not addressing tactical considerations; rather Muskrat's cultural prescription.

We as a community should always be working to normalize the presence of firearms in everyday life, and to diminish the fear and suspicion that is the source of distrust at the mere presence of a firearm. That's what I'm addressing. The more progress we make in that effort, the less likely for there to be the kind of tactical issues that exist simply walking through a Walmart with a slung rifle. The more the open carry stigma is reduced, the more reasonable people will open carry and be comfortable seeing it, and the less correct you'll be about the intentions of individuals who do so today.

I get that and conceptually agree HOWEVER it seems to me it just won't work and will have the opposite effect - as it seems to be doing. In the twenty first century in what's left of the U.S. open carry will never become normalized outside of rural areas. Of course I've been wrong before but I don't think so this time. (I didn't think so the other times either, so there's that.)

If the public in general were that freaked out by open carry you wouldn't see positive movement for open carry and constitutional carry in multiple states.

I for one welcome it as see it as some semblance of restoring our Constitutional rights.


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[Muskrat]

It's amazing to me that even the gun community has been indoctrinated to think our guns should be kept hidden.

I have not been "indoctrinated" by anyone. My views are the rational and considered opinion of a person who learned to shoot rifles at age six, and handguns two years later. I was gifted a rifle at age nine and bought my first revolver at age 14, and I currently own, shoot and reload for just over thirty different firearms. My opinions are my own...not those of the gun-nuts or the anti-gun faction or anyone in-between. My own.

As for the popularity of open cary, I refer again to the social pendulum...it will swing opposite with equal or greater force soon enough...let's all hope it doesn't swing too far, but if it does you can't blame people who hold views similar to my own for that eventuality.

I'm not anti-gun; I'm pro civility. Pro common sense. Pro compromise in the name of the greater good.

If you really want to put your money where your mouth is, take a year off and go live in Pakistan or Somalia or the Congo or Iraq, and report back on how absolutely wonderful it is to live in a society where a assault rifle is necessary just to go out and buy groceries, because everyone else buying groceries is carrying one. Your opinion might just change. Or not... Either way, until you've seen it first hand, you really don't know what it looks like.

[Keiichi]

I want to be clear as well Muskrat: I do respect your experience and do not intend any insult.

Our goal should be to find that social balance where inanimate objects do not engender fear or suspicion, and where well meaning neighbors can interact without threats. In my view, young and inexperienced as I may be, the first priority should be disconnecting the inanimate objects involved from how we treat each other.

The presence of a firearm should be no more alarming than the presence of a kitchen knife. That's my goal, and I know it's a lofty one.

With respect, the USA isn't Pakistan, Somalia, the Congo, or Iraq. We have social and cultural norms and foundational principles that they don't. Though we are in this cultural moment experiencing severe conflict, I truly believe we can find stability and compromise without fearing tools or those who choose to hold them.

We start that process not by perpetuating the same conflict we've experienced, but by educating our friends and neighbors and children how wrong it is and how to be responsible with tools that have been misused.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I truly believe that one of the roots of the division we're experiencing is the very fear and suspicion you've experienced. The right way out of it is not going to be found in that fear and suspicion, even when the greater good may look to be founded on it.

I'd very much like to sit down with you and chat face to face about this. Text chat in a forum is really not conducive to this kind of conversation. If we have that fortune in the future, I look forward to it.

[Mike D]

It's amazing to me that even the gun community has been indoctrinated to think our guns should be kept hidden.

I have not been "indoctrinated" by anyone. My views are the rational and considered opinion of a person who learned to shoot rifles at age six, and handguns two years later. I was gifted a rifle at age nine and bought my first revolver at age 14, and I currently own, shoot and reload for just over thirty different firearms. My opinions are my own...not those of the gun-nuts or the anti-gun faction or anyone in-between. My own.

As for the popularity of open cary, I refer again to the social pendulum...it will swing opposite with equal or greater force soon enough...let's all hope it doesn't swing too far, but if it does you can't blame people who hold views similar to my own for that eventuality.

I'm not anti-gun; I'm pro civility. Pro common sense. Pro compromise in the name of the greater good.

If you really want to put your money where your mouth is, take a year off and go live in Pakistan or Somalia or the Congo or Iraq, and report back on how absolutely wonderful it is to live in a society where a assault rifle is necessary just to go out and buy groceries, because everyone else buying groceries is carrying one. Your opinion might just change. Or not... Either way, until you've seen it first hand, you really don't know what it looks like.

IF openly carried guns are used for nefarious purposes as they often are in the places you mention (and actually admit to) I could see your point. But they aren't in the US.

We have been conditioned to think it's impolite to show our guns even though we are supposedly the freest country on earth.

If that isn't indoctrination, I don't k ow what is.


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[rognp]

I can appreciate your passion, Muskrat, and in a perfect world I might even agree with you from a practical pragmatic viewpoint.

I disagree on principle, as carrying a rifle is not inherently an act of violence nor is it inherently threatening. In a healthy society, responsible citizens who respect each other do not harbor suspicions or fear of each other such as would make open carry of any firearm culturally unacceptable. One of the foundational principles of American culture is "innocent until proven guilty", and that applies as much to interpersonal interactions in daily life as it does to application of the law.

As to the current cultural moment, I don't think it should be surprising at all that responsible peaceful folks are feeling compelled to be more overt about their firearm possession in a time when political violence is being openly encouraged by national media and high profile politicians and other cultural leaders. I honestly don't think it should be difficult to understand, and speaking for myself I won't condemn it in the current context.

Its pretty much as you have stated, we have had a shift in our culture and its perceptions. Once in my lifetime I could as a teenage wander about in public with a firearm and a few would mention being careful and others would tell me where to find some groundhogs or pheasnts etc depending on seasons. The firearm for most at that point in time, 50s &60s, was not considered a threat by the majority. Now its vertually the opposite. A lot of our culture has been influenced by the entertainment media , where special effects accentuate and hyperbolize(?) firearms and other weaponry. People now view most firearms as a threat. Of course most people have not had the fox in the chickens or the woodchuck in the stringbeans so they have little understanding and no appreciation for the domestic non-threatening use of firearms.

This seems to have lead to the need to "demonstrate" their power, strength, or what. On the other hand standing in front of your house or business with arms in hand is a statement. The former is probably more an expression of bravado. And of course with todays cultural base if one monkey does the second monkey has to do more.(no slurs intended, just the old inscription of imitation)