Means to increase neck tension for magnum powder use

[PointBlank82]

Has anyone here ever read of using an adhesive such as superglue to mimic a heavy roll crimp like you see in the magnum pistol rounds like 357/41/44 mag? I know the military seals ammo with some sort of tar mixture for water proofing, but don't think that does much to neck tension based on my experience with a kinetic hammer pulling bullets.

I got to thinking maybe you could use a small amount while seating the bullet to allow the cartridge to build pressure with the slower powders such as H110/W296/AA11FS.

[The_Shadow]

Several Commercial Ammo loaders do use bullet sealants (black) that also work to hold the bullet firmly.  We have seen this in SPEER & Federal ammo and they also use primer sealant all of this to better water proof their defensive ammo line.

[oldman10mm]

What 'magnum' powders are you using that you're concerned about ?
Why do you want to 'mimic' a heavy roll crimp, why not JUST DO a heavy roll crimp ?

[Muskrat]

Super-gluing bullets into the case doesn't seem real prudent to me. I don't have any idea how much it would increase pressure...neither does anyone else, so you'd be the test pilot on that one.

In addition, I think it would be extremely difficult to achieve consistent results, even under standard conditions. Now add variations in temperature, contaminants on the brass or bullet, new vs old glue etc., and who knows what the results would be.

10mm is a beautifully balanced round...but if you want .41 magnum ballistics, get a .41 magnum!

What 'magnum' powders are you using that you're concerned about ?
Why do you want to 'mimic' a heavy roll crimp, why not JUST DO a heavy roll crimp ?

Well, since 10mm headspaces on the case mouth, a heavy roll crimp isn't going to work.

[cwlongshot]

I have switched most calibers I load frequently to taper crimp. For me its because Im loading more and more cast. I havent bought a jacketed bullet, for  myself in almost two years.

A firm taper crimp leaves the CM for head space. BUT TRUTH told, the extractor has as much to do with real world head space as anything. (PSSST... Thats why 40's work in most 10mm pistols)

CW

[PointBlank82]

What 'magnum' powders are you using that you're concerned about ?
Why do you want to 'mimic' a heavy roll crimp, why not JUST DO a heavy roll crimp ?

I've thought of doing that, but not familiar much with that style of crimp (I don't load magnum rounds).

My thought was to try using some of the slightly slower mag pistol powders like H110/W296/LilGun/AA11FS/TCM, etc. which the powder manufacturers tell me aren't quite suitable for 10mm because there isn't enough bullet tension to get a suitable burn going.

As shadow mentioned, I've noticed pulling bullets from sealed rounds is definitely more difficult with a kinetic hammer so figured this would be a good discussion to address the issue.

Has anyone tried reloading 10mm with a heavy roll crimp? Does anyone use a bullet sealant and have noticed they need to reduce charges because of pressure?

[PointBlank82]

Super-gluing bullets into the case doesn't seem real prudent to me. I don't have any idea how much it would increase pressure...neither does anyone else, so you'd be the test pilot on that one.

In addition, I think it would be extremely difficult to achieve consistent results, even under standard conditions. Now add variations in temperature, contaminants on the brass or bullet, new vs old glue etc., and who knows what the results would be.

10mm is a beautifully balanced round...but if you want .41 magnum ballistics, get a .41 magnum!

What 'magnum' powders are you using that you're concerned about ?
Why do you want to 'mimic' a heavy roll crimp, why not JUST DO a heavy roll crimp ?

Well, since 10mm headspaces on the case mouth, a heavy roll crimp isn't going to work.

Yes, 10mm does headspace on the mouth but as evidenced by folks shooting 10mm with 40 SW, it can be done. Maybe you could cutdown 10mm mag brass slightly longer than 10mm auto to accommodate a roll crimp?

Just thinking out of the box here guys, I was hoping most of this has been discussed but maybe my Google-Fu is weak, because I couldn't find it.

[Muskrat]

I don't reload magnum handgun rounds, but I always believed that the purpose of the heavy roll crimp was to keep the bullets from moving under recoil, not to increase pressure or to accommodate slower powders. No?

I don't have enough expertise to make a definitive statement, but its hard for me to believe that you could hold the bullet tightly enough and consistently enough to slow down the burn and thus be able to use slower powders. Maybe it would work, but I've never seen any precedence to support it.

I guess the real question is what advantage is there to using slower powders? It's not like they quit production of the powders that are tried and proven in 10mm, including powders that exceed the original Norma load.

If you try it take meticulous measurements and notes! You'd be going WAY off the reservation on that one...blazing a new trail through uncharted territory most likely.

[sqlbullet]

I agree with CW that in reality these case headspace more on the extractor rim than on the case mouth.

But, the case mouth acts as a backup.  If you roll crimp, and the case slips the extractor it could deep seat past the case mouth resulting in a situation where the throat prevents the case mouth from being able to expand and release the bullet.

I think this probability is very low.  It would require a very perfect theoretical storm.

[PointBlank82]

I don't reload magnum handgun rounds, but I always believed that the purpose of the heavy roll crimp was to keep the bullets from moving under recoil, not to increase pressure or to accommodate slower powders. No?

I don't have enough expertise to make a definitive statement, but its hard for me to believe that you could hold the bullet tightly enough and consistently enough to slow down the burn and thus be able to use slower powders. Maybe it would work, but I've never seen any precedence to support it.

I guess the real question is what advantage is there to using slower powders? It's not like they quit production of the powders that are tried and proven in 10mm, including powders that exceed the original Norma load.

If you try it take meticulous measurements and notes! You'd be going WAY off the reservation on that one...blazing a new trail through uncharted territory most likely.

So the question i have then is why is H110 and similar powders acceptable for 357 mag, yet unsuitable for 10mm? Similar projectile weights, yes the charge/diameter ratio is different, but i think the roll crimp makes a difference.

Is there a die suitable to try this with 10mm?

[Muskrat]

I can't answer that, but I bet someone on here can. I really doubt that the crimp is the difference...

As for a roll-crimp die for 10mm...I doubt you can buy it off the shelf, but I bet any of the die makers could make you one for a reasonable cost.

[DDRiller]

[quote
So the question i have then is why is H110 and similar powders acceptable for 357 mag, yet unsuitable for 10mm? Similar projectile weights, yes the charge/diameter ratio is different, but i think the roll crimp makes a difference.
[/quote]

You can't get enough H110 in a 10mm case to generate enough pressure to cycle the action.  A roll crimp won't help and the 10mm headspaces of the mouth.

[PointBlank82]

[quote
So the question i have then is why is H110 and similar powders acceptable for 357 mag, yet unsuitable for 10mm? Similar projectile weights, yes the charge/diameter ratio is different, but i think the roll crimp makes a difference.

You can't get enough H110 in a 10mm case to generate enough pressure to cycle the action.  A roll crimp won't help and the 10mm headspaces of the mouth.
[/quote]

I've actually run 220 gr PFN Xtreme with a compressed charge of H110 and CCI #350 in both a 16" PCC and my G29 w/ 4.6" barrel. (load worked up w/ a chrony based off 357 mag data, YMMV)

Recoil and blast felt like a full power Blue Dot load, but the velocity was about 50 fps slower. It fouled my PCC due to some unburnt powder residue. At the time I was also playing around with 40 super and seeing some of the same results, even though the case capacity was much greater (halfway between 357 and 41 mag actually), and I was using small rifle primers. Case head expansion and resizing effort on the H110 40 super brass was much improved over using N105/Longshot however.

Another option we now have available to try with improved burning of slow powders is using small rifle primers which I'm not sure anyone has explored yet. I have a couple thousand Fed and Blazer small primer 10mm brass in my stash now... One thing at time though, that's the scientific method.

[dryflash]

When I started loading 10 mm (last summer), I noticed no H-110 loads and was puzzled.

Then shot my work up loads with 180 gr plated and home cast 180 gr powder coated bullets.

With max listed charge with Blue Dot, I thought I was shooting a full power H-110 load.

My conclusion was the people who listed the data knew what they were doing.

So I'll save my H-110 for 357, 7.62x25, and 44 mag.

[gnappi]

As far as a taper crimp not giving suitable tension to get slower powders, I don't get it. With slower powders than are listed for 10mm you're going to run into case capacity issues, and compressing the powder. What velocity / bullet weight are you trying to launch that's beyond the published 1170+ fps loads for 200 grain bullets?