How much is enough

[sqlbullet]

This new topic is a result of an excellent question by Muskrat in another thread.

And the upside of a 1,375 fps FMJ load is...what...exactly?

For background the 1,375 fps load was compared to a 1,300 fps load previously offered.  I am also pretty sure he was making a point about the fact that a non-exanding round doesn't have a lot of benefit until you get above 2200 fps and start with serious hydra-static pressure waves.

This comment made me wonder, how much velocity increase is needed to be useful?

No one will argue that 900 is better than 450, or we would all be shooting air rifles.  Even in FMJ, the benefits in flatter trajectory are worthwhile.

And, no one would pick ammo that was 1,001 fps over ammo that was 1,000 fps unless it was cheaper.  1 fps is not enough gain to matter.

So, where does that boundary lie for you.  For FMJ, or for JHP, how much velocity increase in a given bullet weight makes you turn your head and take notice?

[Trapper6L]

While the question is centered on the 10mm, I think it can be a blanket question for all pistol rounds. When is the velocity enough? What I've found in my travels on shooting leagues, country shoots, etc., is that most folks that shoot pistols are horrible marksmen. Most can't keep it on the paper at 25 yds. Ever notice that at ranges that use a wood frame for mounting the target is usually all shot to hell? So here we have the average pistolero that can't hit crap at 25 yds but buys the hottest stuff he can and for what- flatter trajectory? If you consider time of flight between a 25 yd shot or a 50 yd shot, trajectory is pretty much a nothing as is a difference of time of flight. So what's the allure? Some folks just like hyper velocity regardless if it has any benefits or not. I'm old school, no doubt, but I'd like to think I'm sharp enough to know that at 25 yds, 50'ps increase in velocity is meaningless. I certainly won't know the difference in shooting it and an animal certainly won't know the difference in getting hit with it. Kinda reminds me of the guys that drive the Bugattis and other exotic cars. Yeah, it goes faster but for what? I guess it comes down to a testosterone problem.

[4949shooter]

I think the benefit may be an outdoors self defense load for large animals....such as bear or moose. With a full metal jacket load, the increased velocity would equate to deeper penetration and perhaps better penetration through heavy bone.

Is the extra 75 fps "worth" the possibility of an over pressure situation? Hard to say, but if your gun is set up properly as Shadow mentioned then it shouldn't be an issue.

YMMV

[Muskrat]

FMJ ammo doesn't have much application for large game... Unlike a Keith-style lead bullet, FMJ's tumble in tissue. It seriously retards penetration and prevents a straight wound track.

As for "how much is enough", it's interesting that increased velocity often reduces penetration in .400 expanding bullets. The vast majority of them were engineered to expand properly at .40 S&W velocities, and kicking them up another 300 or 400 fps makes them perform worse, not better. So you're getting worse penetration, and/or fragmentation, and/or jacket separation, in exchange for higher recoil and muzzle blast and slower follow-on shots...not a good trade-off, but it sells ammo to people that believe foot-pounds of energy is somehow relevant to handgun cartridge lethality.

On the other hand tough bullets like the Federal Trophy Bonded need HOT 10mm velocities to expand, and many 200 grain hollow points have lack-luster expansion at moderate 10mm velocities...so there's two sides to the performance debate.

Then there's the issue of accuracy. I've got vintage Underwood 200 grain hard cast loads that clock 1300 from my 6" KKM barrel, but the accuracy is poor. It's fine for a bear defense load, but I'd never use it for a hunting load. I've got a 200 grain XTP load that "only" makes 1,220 fps out of the same barrel, but it's a tack-driver. Oddly enough I also have some 135 grain Nosler loads that scoot out at 1590 fps and they're quite accurate, though I'm not sure what they're actually good for.

I'm real happy in the medium-warm zone:
225 grains at 1050 fps
200 grains at 1150 fps
180 grains at 1250 fps

These velocities are easy on the gun, easy on the brass, and easy on me. If they aren't ballistically equal to the challenge, it's just time to pick a different gun.

I do believe this to be a fact: any velocity gain that unduly batters the weapon or seriously retards accuracy is a poor compromise, and no velocity gain is worth a K-Boom...ever.

But that's just me.

[Kenk]

Not that I am an expert by any stretch, but totally stands to reason

[Muskrat]

So regarding trajectory and handgun bullets at handgun distances...

I shoot a lot of Steel Challenge matches with a .40 S&W, where 35 yards is generally the long shot. I've fiddled around with super-slow 200 grain bullets (which in theory provide the least recoil), and moderate velocity 165 grain bullets, which shoot significantly faster and flatter.

Out to 35 yards, I can't tell a damn bit of difference between the two. Some of my 200 grain loads have been so anemic that I can see the bullet heading downrange against the white backdrop of a target, but I don't hold any different between the two loads, and whatever difference there is in trajectory is inconsequential to a 12" disk at 35 yards.

Anyone who thinks that the trajectory differential between 1300 and 1375 fps is relevant must be shooting a scoped rifle from a solid rest at ranges past 100 yards.

[sqlbullet]

I shoot my 10mm's quite regularly at distances over 50 yards, but only for fun.  Muskrat is spot on though.  Out to 50 yards the difference in trajectory is about 1/8" (.9371" drop vs .7938" drop).

Muzzle energy does matter, but again, more may not be better for a given bullet.

For me it is all about balance, and no one component can be evaluated alone.

[4949shooter]

FMJ ammo doesn't have much application for large game... Unlike a Keith-style lead bullet, FMJ's tumble in tissue. It seriously retards penetration and prevents a straight wound track.

Interesting and first I have heard of this. Have you shot much game with fmj bullets from a pistol?

[Muskrat]

FMJ ammo doesn't have much application for large game... Unlike a Keith-style lead bullet, FMJ's tumble in tissue. It seriously retards penetration and prevents a straight wound track.

Interesting and first I have heard of this. Have you shot much game with fmj bullets from a pistol?

None that I can think of, but I haven't hunted in years.

There's a pretty comprehensive study on pistol bullet penetration, but I can't remember exactly where it's at. Might be in one of the Rathcom papers? In any event the fmj loads performed very poorly in comparison to Keith lead bullets, both in penetration and directional stability.

Look an virtually any "dangerous game" handgun load on the market and it will be a Keith-style cast lead bullet.

[Rojo27]

Don't have any experience with Fenix but just to be clear; looking at the website the 1375fps velocity claim in 10mm is specified through a 6" barrel. 

The 180gr fmj on their website clearly appears to be WFN variety; which would help them perform pretty decently in deep, straight line penetration.  Such as desired for large animal defense. 
5Pins has done a lot of testing of similar loads in 10mm & 45acp....  Seem to recall they penetrate ballistics gel like crazy. 

No disrespect intended to others with a different point of view but a fully supported 6" barrelled pistol stoked with 180gr FMJ (WFN) 10mm skipping along at 1375fps from the muzzle, strapped to my hip while traipsing through places with dangerous critters wouldn't worry me much.  Quite the opposite actually.  Hardcast WFN would have been my first choice but pretty sure WFN FMJ capable of getting job done too. 

Don't know what JHP they use...But if it was 180gr XTP at 1375fps muzzle; that's about 1300fps and 670ft-lbs  25yds; 1223fps and 598ft-lbs at 50yds; 1161fps and 539ft-lbs at 75yds........ 

Rember Hornady loads factory at 1275 from 5" barrel.....  So Fenix gotta do something to differentiate themselves...

[5pins]

Has anyone actually chronied this load to see if it is, in fact, getting 1375? It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer exaggerated their numbers. If so I would think it would penetrate for days and probably more then you will ever need.

As far as how much is too much? Figure out what you need a bullet to do and then match the velocity to accomplish that goal.

[rognp]

From what I can remember from the literature not inet the use of a wide flat meplat yields the best straight line penetration. Round nose or semipointed FMJ are quite independent as far as performance goes. I think from some limited experience withold milsurp ammo ike 7x57 173-5 gr roundnose, by virtue of bullet length tend to keep going in staight lines. One instance I remember was 30" of hickory followed by 4' of turf. I think that bullet may still be travelling. Shorter pointy bullets are random in behavior.
  I use some logs for back stops in some places on the farm and Kieth style tend to go straight in wood , expanded or not. The XTPs tend to yaw and proceed at some angle. Rapid enpansion = short straight path.
   There is an Australian company that makes a dnagerous game FMJ that has a "cupped" sort of meplat they refer to as a "hydro stabilized bullet". This has a good or even better reputation for making straight holes in things like elephants.
     I guess the real answer is enough is what it takes to make a deep enogh disrumptive wound in what ever creature you want to neutralize.Since it is FMJ being discussed then making a hole in the background after transiting the creature is irrelevant.
Sorry to run on.

[Muskrat]

I'm not suggesting that FMJ bullets won't go in, just that they are a poor choice if deep penetration or tissue damage is the goal. By in large the lead in the core of FMJ's is soft, and the jacket won't keep the bullet from deforming, tumbling, or generally going caddywhompus in tissue.

FMJ bullets are not reliable expanders, and they're not reliable penetrators. They can be more functionally reliable than other bullet types, depending on the weapon.

Will they work on large animals? Maybe, but Keith hard-cast bullets have been proven to work significantly better.

Will they work on upright apes? Maybe, but expanding hollow point bullets have been proven to work MUCH better.

Hence the question: What's the point of a FMJ being pushed to 1375 fps? To really WHACK that steel or paper or soup can?

Seems like a gimmick load to me, but to each their own.

[Olgo]

Certain brands of hardball and hollow point are equal velocity as part of training. You practice with hardball and carry hollow point.

The ammo to use depend on what the job is. To hunt use hunting ammo, to plink use plinking ammo. For SD use SD ammo.

[Kenk]

Absolutely a thought process to Stick by, Thanks Olgo!

Ken