accuracy reload v. handload

[rognp]

I convert a fair amount of money into noise and smoke just looking for good accuracy/precision and to retrain my eyes. What Ive seen lately through 100s of rounds is that "handloads" made with new Starline cases are in general more accurate  than "reloads" made with used cases, regardless of brand.  The loads in the new cases have considerably lower bullet pull and appear to be more concentric with none of the apparent bullet base ridges. Most of this loading is in the form of rather stout loads up to dont shoot in the woods unless its raining loads. anyone have any feed  back or experience with this apparent phenominum.  Or opinions. I havent done enough objective research to prove this .

[sqlbullet]

I have never really compared.

Looking over your post I would suspect you need a bit larger diameter expander, and maybe on with a bit more depth before it applies the bell to the mouth.  My gut feeling is the fired cases are getting sized down a bit smaller and the expander is not opening the case back up to full bullet depth.  This results in the bullet base being swaged down when it is seated.  Probably not much, maybe a half thou'.  But this alteration to the base could have a huge impact in how the base of the bullet leaves the muzzle.  If the entire base doesn't "uncork" at the crown as one unit, whichever side comes free first gets a bit of a push that will make a notable difference in groups.

A few years back there was an article in handloader about deformed bullet nose profiles and their affect on accuracy.  Surprisingly, at least to me, there was almost none, even with the nose ground half way off.  Nick the base of the bullet with a file though, and groups doubled or tripled in size every time.

I would look first at a custom expander for your dies.

[The_Shadow]

Well sqlbullet does make a valid point.  I have bee using RCBS 10mm dies, which have a longer expander plug as compared to other brands like LEE as they are made for powder through the expander.
My RCBS 10mm dies are from 1989/90 and actually the crimp section is only for 10mm as the seating / crimp is too long for 40S&W which came out shortly afterwards.  I seat bullets to depth without any crimp being applied by raising the die up at least an eighth of an inch (1/8"), the remove my spacer then taper crimp the rounds to finish with no bullet movement.  The two step method allows bullets to enter the case straighter, without the bullet snagging on the case mouth if the case is touching the crimp section.  So many people are trying to do the seating and crimping in the same step and it causes issues.  Buckled cases, or shaving of bullet material and rolled up at the case mouth can affect accuracy and powder ignition and burning properties.

Accuracy also comes from very consistent powder charges, I take my time and hand weigh each and every powder charge on my RCBS Balance beam scale since (1978).  I use the RCBS uniflow  powder drop, which I set to drop at even or slightly short of the level beam, then use the powder trickler (light tap to the knob to dispense a few flakes or kernels) to balance if needed to Match Grade for each.  Yes it takes a little more time than just a powder drop, but the results have shown more accurate performance all the way around...

[Kenk]

I totally agree, verifying the weight  of each charge is critical. This is for sure time consuming, but the best way...at least for me

[Trapper6L]

I would look at the dies. Something isn't quite right there. Normally, fireformed brass is more accurate than new brass. The caveat being the amount of pressure the cartridge makes. You won't get any fireforming with a cartridge like the old 38/40. It just doesn't make any high pressures that would change the dimensions of the case.

In regards to the powder charge. This is where it can cause many-a-disagreements. I was a weigh every powder charge in my early days. Spent many a night loading ammo weighing every round. Then I came across an old man from Illinois that opened a gunshop locally in Texas. He had a 3'x 3' target behind the counter that I thought had one hole in it. As the story went, he got some of his gun club buds to go with him in Illinois to witness his attempt at a worlds record 1000 yd group. It was a cold, extremely still morning and he shot 10 rounds out of a custom rifle chambered in 308 Norma. That was the target in his shop and witnessed. He never weighed a round as such. He setup his powder measure by scale but after that, every charge went thru his measure, not the scale. I use an RCBS powder measure that uses the small RCBS cylinder. I had a stem and plug made for it that uses a micrometer so going back to the EXACT same volume of powder is not a problem. It throws almost any powder on the money, including Blue Dot or Unique. It won't work with powders like SR4759. What's whacky there is I use a Lee Dipper set throwing it in a scale. The Dipper set, once you get the feel for it, can dip loads dead on the money by the scale. But volume loading is another form of exact powder volume which is the name of the game. When you use a scale, all you're doing is trying to load the exact volume of powder. Skip the scale, get a good powder measure and don't look back. I couldn't have shot all that I have in my life if I weighed ever round. Volume loading works. Works good enough for a custom Remington 40X in 30/338 Mag to shoot tight enough groups at 500 yds you can cover it with a dime. Works for a 6XC  and a .261x 47 Dietz too.

As we all are creatures of habit, I doubt anybody is going to run out and buy a high grade measure. The jist in the post is that there are always options, some better, some equal, some not so good. I have several buds that shoot competition almost every weekend. A couple of these guys use only a progressive press. AS long as the gun goes off, they're happy. Most can't hit their truck at 50 yds with their ammo but they're happy. If you're happy with your reloading, keep after it. But if you'd like to do something a little different, look into volume reloading.

[rognp]

Sqlbullet, I agree with your observation. The dies are reducing  cases 3-4 thous' and the expander,a Lee, is short as Shadow mentions. The Lee increases seating or neck tension by 0.002". I think the carbide ring over(under) sizes cases by a few thousanths. I dont think id live long enough to lap it out to a desired diameter.
I have pulled quite a few bullets and have not found any swaging of bullet bodies or heels, down to0.0001". Even with plated bullets, no swaging.  The old comments about bullet deformity is essentially true. Using 6mm, 7mm and 30cal bullets in rifles that shot well, you could use sidecutters to "prune" off a section of bullet nose at a bias even to 20 grains will rarely cause more than a 3/4" displacement at a 100 yds. On the otherhand, as stated a file nick or a ding on a dropped bullet will give a totally unpredictable dispersion. Lack of case mouth bell will cause bullet base or shank shaving , the same as base deformity.    Just the same as a bad crown.
Concentricity is a concern, but with the stubby pistol bullets and the short pistol cases its easy to pile up tolerances and send the bullet on its way somewhat "cocked".  Less sizing might help here. The RCBS dies mentioned sound like a good idea, hopefully having some friendlier dimensions. and as far as dimensions go its amazing how much Starline(the best?) brass varies on taper crimping. Winny brass seems more consistent but not as available.
  Qiuite some time ago I spent a LOT of time in BR competition and was more than slightly successful. The only time I weighed powder charges was initially to set up measure and randomly or at the end of a session to verify. Dippers work too. Being consistent is the key. Back in the black powder days they dipped of measured charges and set records(with cast) we havent equaled today.  You can get your measure set to deliver consistent charges even with 800X, but you have to custom tune your procedure and adhere to it. I use a RCBS Little Dandy measure with fixed rotors that I tune with base shims or procedural "taps". When I load those frightful hunting rounds I drop them on the scale, mostly to avoid any stack of tolerances. A change of 0.2 gr in a 30 gr case makes little difference, but the same amount in a piddly 13gr case can change pressures significantly, these are faster powders so the wgt change is more significant. 
A set of new dies is being ordered today and we'll se how that helps. I may have to learn how to use our lathe and do some custom mods. Excuse me please for my rambling, my wife was watching the news and solving the worlds problems in my good ear.
  Thank you for insights.

[rognp]

I acquired a set Of RCBS 0mm dies and the loaded rounds appear better.  Thanks Squib and Shadow.  I havent been able to shoot enough to validate improvement in accuracy, but Im pleased with the appearance. Ill have to shoot enough to retrain my eyes again. Hopefully get to do that soon.