RMR or Red Dot

[tcecil88]

My Glock 40 came with a Vortex Venom RDS that would not hold zero. I replaced it with a Trijicon RM07 w/ waterproofing kit and that sighted in well and held zero, but would cut in and out at times. I shimmed the battery with a piece or the battery packaging and it has been 100% ever since. I put the Vortex venom on one of my AR's and it has held zero fine on that. Evidently the Vortex did not like the slide reciprocating.

[Muskrat]

Never been a Vortex fan, but I hear they have a very good warranty.

Red dots do allow most of us to vastly increase precision, though usually at the cost of instinct shooting quickness. I learned that if I want to be competitive on the Steel Challenge Smoke n' Hope stage, I can't even look for the dot until it's time to shoot the stop plate...finding the dot takes too much time when you can point-shoot the first four targets.

Most people present their handgun muzzle-high so they can acquire the front sight, then tilt the muzzle down to nest it into the rear sight. They have no idea that they're doing it, either. Switch to a red-dot and the muzzle-high presentation doesn't work anymore. The dot is out of view, and in an attempt to find it people over-correct and just get a glimpse of the dot racing across the window before it disappears in a different quadrant.

In addition, many people, law enforcement especially, are trained to be target oriented...they focus the majority of their attention on the target and only transition to seeing the front sight when they're pressing the trigger. They have to...they need to be able to justify shooting right up to the last fraction of a second before the gun goes off.

But that approach doesn't work well with red dots. With red dots a person has to be weapon-oriented until the dot is acquired and on target. Once acquired it's easy to keep the dot, but finding the dot in the first place has to take precedence over observing the target.

I'm conflicted between converting entirely to red dots, or just keeping irons on my field guns and using a red dot at the competitions. Price is one issue, reliability is another, and consistency is the third. I think a person can learn to use dots as quickly as irons and with greater accuracy, but it probably requires making a full transition and then committing to learning the nuances of the new system.

[Mike D]

My Glock 40 came with a Vortex Venom RDS that would not hold zero. I replaced it with a Trijicon RM07 w/ waterproofing kit and that sighted in well and held zero, but would cut in and out at times. I shimmed the battery with a piece or the battery packaging and it has been 100% ever since. I put the Vortex venom on one of my AR's and it has held zero fine on that. Evidently the Vortex did not like the slide reciprocating.

If you have a Gen 1 RMR send it in and they will fix it under warranty. Just got 2 of them back recently.


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[Mike D]

Never been a Vortex fan, but I hear they have a very good warranty.

Red dots do allow most of us to vastly increase precision, though usually at the cost of instinct shooting quickness. I learned that if I want to be competitive on the Steel Challenge Smoke n' Hope stage, I can't even look for the dot until it's time to shoot the stop plate...finding the dot takes too much time when you can point-shoot the first four targets.

Most people present their handgun muzzle-high so they can acquire the front sight, then tilt the muzzle down to nest it into the rear sight. They have no idea that they're doing it, either. Switch to a red-dot and the muzzle-high presentation doesn't work anymore. The dot is out of view, and in an attempt to find it people over-correct and just get a glimpse of the dot racing across the window before it disappears in a different quadrant.

In addition, many people, law enforcement especially, are trained to be target oriented...they focus the majority of their attention on the target and only transition to seeing the front sight when they're pressing the trigger. They have to...they need to be able to justify shooting right up to the last fraction of a second before the gun goes off.

But that approach doesn't work well with red dots. With red dots a person has to be weapon-oriented until the dot is acquired and on target. Once acquired it's easy to keep the dot, but finding the dot in the first place has to take precedence over observing the target.

I'm conflicted between converting entirely to red dots, or just keeping irons on my field guns and using a red dot at the competitions. Price is one issue, reliability is another, and consistency is the third. I think a person can learn to use dots as quickly as irons and with greater accuracy, but it probably requires making a full transition and then committing to learning the nuances of the new system.

They have a good warranty because it gets used a lot. [emoji16]


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[Muskrat]

Or because they fail a lot, and it's better business to replace the handful of optics that actually get used in comparison the the majority that sit in safes and drawers and cupboards, getting about the same wear and tear they received in the dealers display case.

Or not...

I've just never been impressed with the brand...strikes me as heavy on the marketing, light on the product.

Luckily, we have choices!

[Mike D]

Or because they fail a lot, and it's better business to replace the handful of optics that actually get used in comparison the the majority that sit in safes and drawers and cupboards, getting about the same wear and tear they received in the dealers display case.

Or not...

I've just never been impressed with the brand...strikes me as heavy on the marketing, light on the product.

Luckily, we have choices!

Yes that is what I was saying. My experience with multiple Vortex products is they fail a lot so they get a lot of practice at using their warranty.


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[Muskrat]

Yes that is what I was saying. My experience with multiple Vortex products is they fail a lot so they get a lot of practice at using their warranty.

Roger that!

So I ran a quick 500 rounds through my Glock 35 with the Trijicon SRO mounted on a DPP titanium plate. I was shooting 10" steel plates at distances from fifteen to thirty-five meters. Have to say that the big window of the SRO makes a significant difference in the speed of dot acquisition. I can shoot the SRO every bit as quickly as irons on close targets, and faster on far targets. The BEEP-to-hit time between the 15 and 35 meter targets is less than a quarter of a second.

Part of the big-window advantage is due to that a dot doesn't need to be centered in the window to work...so the bigger the window the quicker you can press the trigger, even if the dot is at the very edge of the visible window, but on target.

Still contemplating whether to convert my field guns to dots. The SRO is too fragile, so I'd be back to the smaller window the RMR provides.

[Cherokeetracker]

I have been using the Ulta-Dot on revolvers, and got used to them. Switching back to my Semi Autos, with irons was an abrupt change in the hunting arena. I tried a friends fast fire and as some of stated, I had to hunt for the dot. It definitely caused me to have to lower the muzzle. I was told by a few guys that there is enough difference in the RMR and the tube types that you sort of have to get use to using each type.
Anyone found this to be true?
  Another thing I noticed is that the 3MOA dot was fine for targets but reflected back in my face too much and sort of gave the starburst effect at night hunting hogs. Switching to a 1moa and the 2MOA helped tremendously.
    I will be trying out the new Burris when it comes out. Good info here. Thanks.
      Also this has me wondering how things will work out with a heavy load and slamming the reflex around?  Was strongly considering the Trijicon for the size and the small 1moa dot strictly for hunting.
   Now I am wondering how well it might hold up. Shooting the gun only a few times each month hunting, might be ok, as opposed to shooting competition.

[Rooster41]

My Glock 40 came with a Vortex Venom RDS that would not hold zero. I replaced it with a Trijicon RM07 w/ waterproofing kit and that sighted in well and held zero, but would cut in and out at times. I shimmed the battery with a piece or the battery packaging and it has been 100% ever since. I put the Vortex venom on one of my AR's and it has held zero fine on that. Evidently the Vortex did not like the slide reciprocating.

That's interesting. Maybe its a bad optic. I have a Venom mounted on a G20 and G29 both with "Outer Impact" mounting plates. The G20 has about 500 rounds with the optic and continues to hold zero. The G29 is new and has only about 60 rounds with the optic but so far no issues. Thinking of going to this route with my XDM10

Never been a Vortex fan, but I hear they have a very good warranty.

Red dots do allow most of us to vastly increase precision, though usually at the cost of instinct shooting quickness. I learned that if I want to be competitive on the Steel Challenge Smoke n' Hope stage, I can't even look for the dot until it's time to shoot the stop plate...finding the dot takes too much time when you can point-shoot the first four targets.

Most people present their handgun muzzle-high so they can acquire the front sight, then tilt the muzzle down to nest it into the rear sight. They have no idea that they're doing it, either. Switch to a red-dot and the muzzle-high presentation doesn't work anymore. The dot is out of view, and in an attempt to find it people over-correct and just get a glimpse of the dot racing across the window before it disappears in a different quadrant.

In addition, many people, law enforcement especially, are trained to be target oriented...they focus the majority of their attention on the target and only transition to seeing the front sight when they're pressing the trigger. They have to...they need to be able to justify shooting right up to the last fraction of a second before the gun goes off.

But that approach doesn't work well with red dots. With red dots a person has to be weapon-oriented until the dot is acquired and on target. Once acquired it's easy to keep the dot, but finding the dot in the first place has to take precedence over observing the target.

I'm conflicted between converting entirely to red dots, or just keeping irons on my field guns and using a red dot at the competitions. Price is one issue, reliability is another, and consistency is the third. I think a person can learn to use dots as quickly as irons and with greater accuracy, but it probably requires making a full transition and then committing to learning the nuances of the new system.

Muskrat, no intention of starting an argument, but I thought I would offer my experience. I am a LEO. For duty I carry Gen 4 Glock 19 MOS with Vortex Venom. It took a while to get used to it. I shot 800 rounds before I qualified with it for duty. I dont think my instinct shooting has suffered one bit. But I know a lot of cops don't shoot their guns but once a year at qualifying. I shoot mine often. Every time I got to the range on my own, I shoot atleast 50 rounds of my own ammo. I shoot at ranges of 3 ft to 25 yards. I dont look at the dot until about 7 yards or so. Never really measured it. I also use this on the SWAT team. We shoot 100 rounds monthly. I do take a couple of mags and just use the suppressor height sights with no problems. I also have to qualify twice with this gun. One with the optic and one using the iron sights. In the two years I have been carrying this gun for duty, I have only had to point it at one person after a chase that ended in a crash. Under the high stress of the chase and subsequent felony stop I was able to focus on my subject by looking through the glass, but still seeing that my dot was where it needed to be. If things would have went to hell I have no doubt my rounds would have would have been on target from about 60 feet without having to transition from target to red dot. At that distance I most definitely would have had to with the iron sights.  Thankfully I did not have to find out and we ended with 3 in custody and everybody lived to see another day.

[50BMG]

My older eyes need a RDS, I can't pick up irons anymore very well.
RMR is one of the toughest RDS out there.
If you have time check out the torture tests on the various RDS out there.
They all work great, I just trust the RMR  the most.

I agree with Velvetant RE: the durability of the RMR.
I am running one on my XDM OSP and it is holding up great, even with the hot hand loads I'm usually shooting (knocking on wood right now: LoL...)


However, a fairly well known firearms/defensive gun trainer named Gabe Suarez, a guy whose opinion I trust implicitly on this matter, says the Holosuns ARE up to the task when it comes to "drop them off a building and see if they still work" levels of durability. Previous to the Holosun, the RMR was "the only dot sight he would entrust with his life" as with the kinds of training he teaches (VERY INTENSIVE/real world/down and dirty gunfighting techniques) he had witnessed failures from pretty much every other brand of handgun mounted red dot sight besides the Trijicon.
Again, I know there ARE other good red dots out there, but in the "gunfight in the pouring rain/throw the gun in the desert rocks-sand, beat the attacker with the weapon before shooting him" very BRUTAL types of things Gabe trains people to survive, he only endorses the RMR & now the Holosun too.
I since have fired a friend's handgun with the Holo 508T on it and personally I like it A LOT!

If you haven't met Gabe before, here you go:
http://www.gabesuarez.com
https://vimeo.com/392316657
https://vimeo.com/suarezinternational

His thoughts on the Holosun pistol sight:
https://gabesuarez.com/holosun-h508t-a-fast-and-quick-briefing

Don't buy a "cheap" red dot (Gabe):
https://gabesuarez.com/dont-buy-a-cheap-and-crappy-red-dot

He also doesn't like the Trijicon SRO OR the new RMRcc:
https://vimeo.com/455931187

As you can tell, the guy pulls no punches and doesn't apologize for it either. These days, it's kinda refreshing to hear such a straight/outspoken shooter, even if you don't agree with him 100% on anything.

Also, even though I'm normally an Aimpoint man when it comes to rifle red dots, I now have a Holosun HS403C on one of my AR "pistols" and I tell you what, that sight is flipping AWESOME!
It runs on 100% solar power in most circumstances. It's "shake awake" switching is awesome when/if self defense ever becomes an issue. All aluminum body (Holosun sights are also available with Titanium bodies if you want to pay the extra $ for it). Like the Aimpoints I buy, the HS403C is also night vision compatible.
Considering the 403C's price point is @ $200-$250 LESS than even the fairly reasonable "on sale" priced Aimpoint PRO, this rifle sight DEFINITELY gets my own personal seal of approval!
https://holosun.com/index/product/detail/id/134.html

[Blades]

I bought a DeltaPoint Pro directly from Leupold using their veteran discount. Their warranty is for life and stays with the RDS. If I had bought it used, still has a warranty.

[jazzsax8]

Was wanting to upgrade my Burris FF III's to Holosun.  After looking over their written warranty contacted them to clarify and opted out.  I like to buy used in minty condition where there was NO warranty.  Nothing wrong so far with the Venom 3 & 6 I mounted up, one on my milled G20.