Bear Protection

[Nor]

Hello.
I am new to the forum, so I will thank you in advance for your help. 
I am considering purchasing a Glock 40 to carry for bear protection.  I have attempted to do as much research as I can; however, there are so many "opinions" it gets a little crazy.  Can any help me with the following question:
Is the 10 mm, with the right ammo, a capable round for bear protection?  I would also emphasize that without practice, range time, I'm not sure any pistol will help! 
Thanks for your time!!

[sqlbullet]

Black - Sure.  Guys hunt black bear with 10mm.

Brown - Dicey.  But any handgun, including my Desert Eagle gets dicey with a big brown.

10mm Auto 200 grain FMJ will run nearly 1300 fps from a Glock 40 and has a sectional density of .179.

44 Mag 240 grain Keith from a 4" 44 mag will run about 1250 fps* and has a sectional density of .186.

Those are pretty comparable ballistics and will result in very similar penetration.  The 44 mag will cut a slightly bigger hole, but exsanguination is not a reliable way to stop a bear.  You are really looking for deterrent pain if they aren't agressive, and a CNS stop if they are.  CNS depends on penetration.

[Spudmeister]

Hi Nor.  Welcome to the forum.

We don't have many brown bears here in PA but I'll share some thoughts anyway.  The advantage of a pistol compared to a shotgun or rifle is you never need to take it off.  It is always at hand.  This is not true of rifles or shotguns.  A big bore rifle or 12 ga shotgun is nearly always a lot better than any handgun.  The handgun is what you grab when your big gun is out of reach (or impractical to carry). 

I never thought the 10mm was a capable round for bear protection but the reports from Alaska are pretty positive.  Of course those reports may be lopsided because only the guys who survived give reports.  Kidding aside, the 10mm seems to do well against big toothy things when the bullets go fast and penetrate very deeply.  However, it's not unheard of to shoot a charging bear, miss the CNS hit and run out of your 5-6 revolver shots about the time the bear is close enough for an easier hit. 

Another issue is recoil.  You can practice endlessly with your G40 with hot loaded ammo without issue.  Most of us can't do that with a 454.  And finally, the G40 with the hottest loads gives you very fast recoil recovery and backup shots. 

So, yes, I think the G40 with proper ammo is an excellent gun for 100% carry in bear country.  But it is still a pea shooter compared to a 12 ga with slugs with a practiced skill.

[Nor]

I agree, a shotgun is the best protection available.  But, tough to carry in certain circumstances.  I really like the idea of having a high round capacity and the lower recoil of the 10mm compared to other calibers is very appealing.  Thank you very much for your input!! 

[Thebear_78]

Shotguns are for birds!

There is nothing better than a big rifle but a handgun can be effective.

I have a Glock 20, a 40 MOS with RMR, 21 w/ 45 super and 21 pound spring, a1911 10mm, and a 44 mag revolver.   I am comfortable in "bear country" with any of these.   

I can definitely put more lead on target faster with the autos than the revolver.   

A 200gr FMJ or hardcast at 1200+ FPS is nothing to sneeze at.  They penetrate very well.  My buddy pushed two 200gr TMJ thru a 6' black bear out of a Glock 20.  Entrance in neck/shoulder junction exited out rear leg.  Smashed a bunch of neck vertebrae on its way thru. 

I think the 10mm is about the best power/packability/controllability out there.  The bigger bore handguns are heavy, recoil is more difficult to control, and have limited capacity. 

We do a "charging bear" drill, more just fun practice.  Suspended balloon above a remote control car.  Start at 20 yards with your back to it.   Turn, draw, and fire as its raced toward you.  It can be pretty humbling but you can get pretty good at it.  Little tip, much easier if you take a knee.

My percentages are way higher with the 10 vs 44, 454, 500s.  You won't get a second accurately aimed shot with the 460-500s.   You might get 2-3 with the 44.  You might get 8 or more with the 10mm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spudmeister]

Mr Bear,

I really don't think there is much doubt anywhere that a 12 ga pump or semi with proper slugs is in the top tier of stopping big bears up close.  Just too much history to think otherwise IMO.

But I could not agree with you more on the position you take with handguns.  If I get only a single shot on a charging bear, let it be a 475 or 500.  But that is not reality and you expressed it very well.  It is a balance of all factors on a charge and for that I cannot think of anything off shelf better than a 10mm.  Bigger revolver cartridges are better but cannot be delivered as well. 

Glad to hear you do the balloon thing on the remote controlled toy car.  Our group does it as well.  Shooting a moving target is not all that hard but it is not intuitive.  We have watched otherwise very good shots going into sort of a brain failure waiting for the target to stop moving so they can shoot it.  It should be standard fair for training but is pretty rare.

Thanks for jumping in.  You said a lot of important things with a good perspective.

[Thebear_78]

I've witnessed very poor effectiveness with shotguns in bears.  Specifically brown bears.  Foster style slugs flatten out and fail to penetrate, buckshot also is ineffective.  Only the hard cast like brennekke  black magic have the necessary penetration.   

A buddy of mine swatted an interior bear in camp with the classic buckshot/slug combo.  3 hits with the 12ga,   Bear killed later with the 375,  none of the pellets or foster slugs made it into the vitals.  A lot of muscle damage to the bear but not immediately fatal.   

I'll take a bigbore rifle over a shotgun every time!  I have an AR15 in 450 bushmaster running 275gr TSX, a 45/70 guide gun, and 375 RUM and 338 RCM with light mounts and ghost rings.   If I'm carrying a long gun it won't be a shotgun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluebird5000]

Per the other comments I think the 10mm can do fine if you hit the CNS (and it's easier to shoot and carry than huge revolvers) but just remember those comments are specifically mentioning using 200 or 220gr hardcast bullets which have a flat nose and are made of hardened alloy. You'll want to make sure the bullet you choose cycles in your gun reliably as well since the hardcast rounds are usually loaded hotter.

I wonder how much of a pain it would be to carry a Shockwave or TAC-14 with Brennekke 1 3/8oz black magic magnum hardened slugs with a sling. I don't own one out so haven't tried it. It would kick pretty bad but I suspect it can be done.

What would I do? I'd probably just use my Glock 40 with 220gr hardcast since I already have it and can conceal it when hiking. I'm not an expert ... if I didn't mind it or if the threat was high I'd be packing a rifle or shotgun. Those bears are huge. I'd sure hate to kill one out of season as well ... but I'm not gonna be eaten if I can help it.

[sep]

It's one of the pistols I carry for bear defense here in Alaska. As has already been said, hit the head, neck vertebrae or spine with a good hardcast bullet and you'll stop the bear. Shots to the body may kill the bear but it won't be immediate like a CNS hit.   

[Nor]

So, Glock 40 it is.  Thank you all for your input!! 

[tommac919]

and don't forget the wipes when the brown bear charges 

[Kenk]

Yep, a slug with a sling, and a high cap 10 on your hip, and or chest rig should cover it : )

[cmtmike]

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/09/pistols-bear-spray-stop-two-bear-attacks-on-archery-hunters-in-montana/

A pretty good write-up about some events here in Montana this fall.  Bottom line, if an aggressive bear charges in the timber it's going to be very fast and chaotic.  I like to hunt by myself a lot of the time but it's not without some risk.  Glock 29 loaded with 220 grain underwood hardcast gives me some comfort but I'd rather not get into fray with an 800 lb grizzly.  From the article it would seem a sub-conscience familiarity and proficiency with you handgun of choice would be an important area of preparation.

[Kenk]

Looks like the same article I read yesterday, shot it in the nose with a nine, but apparently discouraged it enough to run off, very fortunate folks to be sure

[Spudmeister]

It is logical to think an attacking bear does not give the victim much advanced warning.  I know you can't carry a pistol in your hand every moment.  But if you get little to no time before the bear gets to you, the speed of the draw can determine winning or losing.  A handgun buried under a coat or pack strap would be false confidence in such as attack.  A handgun that can be drawn with either hand would be a possible life saver.  Of course a 10mm would be a lot better than a 9mm. 

So here is my question (we do not have many brown bears in PA).  Do those of you in bear country consider the speed of the draw under field conditions to be important?