Bear Protection

[Thebear_78]

Did a little shooting this weekend with a few of my "bear guns".

I shot a 4" 500 smith, a 2.75" 44mag, a 3" 357, a Glock 40, and a sig tax ops 10mm.

Hands down putting more lead accurAtely with either 10mm, especially the RMR sighted G40.


The 357 and 44 weren't terrible, 5 hits with the 357, 4 with the 44.


Chances are high that I'd be bear shit with the 500 SW!  One round gotten off.  But the 500 is impressive!  Maybe the blast would be enough to turn a bear!



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[Kenk]

The 500 smith, no question, an amazingly powerful weapon. As for on target followup shots in a stressful situation, that would be a tough one...at least for me
Thanks

Ken

[woods_walker]

As Sqlbullet said, black bears are no problem for the 10mm but grizzly are a bit of a different story.

I live in the Boise, Idaho area. I hunt different regions of my state from one year to the next. When I am hunting deer, and I don't do it often anymore, it is usually the southern desert regions or the nearby mountains. In these areas I carry my G20 for protection and sometimes as my sole firearm. It is perfect for the job as my only threats would be men, mountain lions, or black bears.

Where I hunt elk and moose is a different story. These efforts take me up to the far north. Every year I am hunting somewhere between Washington, Idaho, and Montana, most of it within 100 miles of Canada. That's grizzly country.

Men who have lived and hunted for a long time here don't carry a 10mm in the woods here. No matter what a 10mm shows on paper for ballistics, a .45 Colt with a 300 grain hardcast bullet will do it better every time. And guys who carry .44 magnums in the woods are usually intelligent enough to not load it with a 240 grain hollowpoint.

I don't know any of you guys here but I read your discussions for quite a while before becoming a member. Some of you talk a good story. Some of you are avid hunters. A very small number of you are dangerous game hunters who know what grizzly are capable of and you have no illusions about dangerous game weapons versus a "mag dump" with a marginal cartridge.

I KNOW my .45 Colt will shoot ALL THE WAY THROUGH a 16" Douglas Fir sapling, and my .480 Ruger will do even better. I've never found a 10mm load that will compare. I've had 3 successful grizzly hunts and been the "back up" gun on several others. I've seen a grizzly charge- it's fast beyond comprehension! You're not terribly likely to take advantage of those 10-15 rounds of Glock power- 3 or 4 rounds of accurate fire is more likely with an auto. If you do the same with a true HEAVY bullet, you will have real stopping power.

And to keep the comparisons factual, top-end 10mm heavy-bullet loads have a sectional density of .179 according to another posting here. Both the .45 Colt and .44 Magnum, loaded with bullets of 300 grains or more will have a SD over .220. Now THAT"S real penetration.

I'm not bashing the 10mm here- I've been a fan and collector since the late 80's with my first Colt, a Delta Elite. But it, like any thing else, has limitations. Thinking a 10mm will be "just fine" against grizzly is an exercise in false expectations.

Again, if you're in black bear country your G40 will be perfect. It will be great fun against running coyotes too! If you're going to places where the the bears are at the top of the food chain, get a bigger gun!

[sqlbullet]

My friends are always amazed when we go hiking in Grizzly country and I just bring a 22.  I assure them it is all I need.  I just shoot them in the knee and run away while the bear eats them.

[sqlbullet]

On a more serious note, I just came across this article:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaskans-stop-grizzly-bear-charge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz61zXRCBGZ

Unfortunately, to many 10mm fans fail to recognize that a citation of success can just as easily represent an aberration rather than validation.  Such is the case with the 10mm and large aggressive grizzly bears.

Just because this guy was successful doesn't mean that statistically this is a sound practice.  Grizzle bears are in a different league.

[Thebear_78]

I guess we don't have as tough of bears here in Alaska as you do in Montana.   The 10mm is very popular here, it's also used regularly year in and  year out against bears here.   

16" trees aren't much of a threat up here either.   

There is nothing wrong with your 45 colt, but I wouldn't get to quick to bash the 10mm.  A  200gr stout load in the 10mm will get in deep enough with good placement and up the odds that a bullet gets there.

A quote from Phil Shoemaker...
"
The formost virtue of a handgun is that they are portable and likely to be with you at all times. Any handgun beats no gun and a determined person with one should be able to survive most situations. My choice is usually my S&W 44 Mtn Gun as it is comfortable and familiar. I also occationally carry a S&W M-13 357 with hard cast 200gr Fn bullets. i wouldn't feel unarmed with a Glock, Ruger or other good auto but as we used to say in the military - the purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle."

This guy has more experience with big bears in tense situations than all of us on here combined.   

It really boils down to what your shoot well.   If that's a 357 or 10mm or a 500 SW it's up to you to figure that out.   A lot more people are familiar with the Glock platform.  If your shoot a 9mm Glock a lot the 10mm will seem pretty natural.

Remember all of them are a POOR substitute for your rifle.



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[woods_walker]

My friends are always amazed when we go hiking in Grizzly country and I just bring a 22.  I assure them it is all I need.  I just shoot them in the knee and run away while the bear eats them.

$.04/ round for .22 Long Rifle... $.90-$1.00/ round for .45 Colt... time to update the "oh sh&t" plan to protect the retirement!

[sep]

It's interesting to discuss bear defense. I'm certainly no expert and I have lived in interior Alaska on and off since 1985. I have hunted the interior, the north slope, the Alaska Peninsula and many other places in between. With respect to bears, I have hunted mostly Brown Bears which are larger than interior grizzly bears.  I have personally killed one Brown Bear by myself and put bullets in five others backing up friends.

I use a 338 Win Mag and friends have used 300 Win Mags, an 8mm Rem Mag and 338 Win Mags. Despite shooting these bears with large caliber rifles, none of them have been dropped, immobile unless they were shot through the spine. I would expect a head or neck shot would produce a similar result. Chest shots and shoulder shots on all the bears I have witnessed were not very impressive. They can still move quite well even on three legs.  I'm saying this simply to illustrate if you don't shoot the bear in the head, neck or spine, there is no telling how it will react. They do not die quickly when shot through the body and only need a few seconds to get on top of you and kill you.

So, my perspective is you need enough handgun and bullet construction coupled with the ability to shoot accurately to penetrate the skull, neck or spine of a charging bear to immediately stop the threat. If you hit the bear anywhere else, there is no telling what it will do. It may veer away from you or it may keep coming right at you.

So, whatever handgun you choose to carry, you should practice with it because when the time comes to use it, you will default to your level of training.

So, what do I carry? It depends, if I am big game hunting I'm carrying a rifle. If I'm fishing or dipnetting salmon or ATV riding I carry a pistol.

One of our local old timers here in Fairbanks is named Joe Nava and he has taught bear defense courses for all manner of agencies for decades. He prefers the 357 Magnum with 158 grain jacketed softpoints. He says he has shot through bear skulls, moose skulls, steer and bison skulls with his and it is enough gun for head shots. He believes you should take your first shot at the charging bear at 20 feet. The bullet will blow right through the skull. Why 20 feet? Because it may just be bluff charging you and up here, if you shoot a bear at 50 yards and try to say it was in defense of life or property you're gonna have some "splainin" to do when the state troopers arrive.   

Personally, I prefer either a 10MM with 200 grain hardcast loads or my S&W 629 with 240 grain hardcast. I choose those calibers and loads because I can shoot them well and can make a followup shot(s) reasonably well. I don't think i could do that with larger big bore revolvers. So, I stick with what i can shoot well and I shoot handguns almost every weekend during the winter months.

I know four people who killed bears in defense of life and property. Three used rifles and one used a handgun. The handgun shooter told me he shot the small griz as it came at him on a riverbank. He fired one shot from his 44 magnum shooting 240 grain Hornady XTPs. He told me the bullet blew right through the skull and lodged in the body of the bear. Bear skulls aren't that tough to shoot through...if you can hit them.

So, enjoy your time in the woods with whatever you decide to carry...it just may save your life.                                         

[Thebear_78]

Sep-

My experience has mirrored yours.  I've only seen one bear dropped like someone hit the off switch.   A 7' sow shot thru the neck/ shoulder junction straight down thru the vital at 15 yards from a tree stand over bait.   Hit with a 450gr TSX out of a 458 Lott. 

Another buddy one shot flopped one with a 375 H&H.   Bullet entered below the chin, took out several inches of vertebrae. 

No handgun is getting the job done on horsepower, it's all about placement. 

I was at the Russian river several years ago when a GI DLP'd a bear with a beretta 92 9mm.  I'm not sure if he got all 15 off but it sounded like a firefight.  Stopped it with a head shot.

Shoot as big as you can shoot well.


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[sqlbullet]

Apologies for reposting an article that had already been linked.  Guess I am getting old.

[180 Grains]

You asked specially about the Glock 40. I have both the 40 and the 20 and if I had to pick, for protection, not hunting, I would and do carry the 20. I also have a number of 44 Mags and a 500.  I still carry the 20. 15 round mags...


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