Another big thanks to Intercooler...

[The_Shadow]

Thanks again, to Intercooler for sharing the commercial ammo for pull-down inspections and documentations!

For those who haven't seen it, the info is in the Factory 10mm Ammo http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/
There are pull-downs for Underwood, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, PBR, Michigan, Ted Nugent, etc.,  10mm, 357 Mag, 9mm, 44Mag for your viewing pleasure...

Intercooler host a spreadsheet of many cartridges as tested from his guns so be sure to see the real world performance here http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-factory-ammo-master-sheet/

If you're a handloader, you'll appreciate being able to see what is being used as well.

Best regards and safe shooting! 

[sqlbullet]

A hearty agreement!  IC has done us all a huge service.  As has The_Shadow for doing many of the pull-downs and providing his expertise in the difficult task of identifying powders.

I am curious, though, about one thought.

As you can see, many of the "hot" factory loads exceed data provided by reloading manuals.  In theory, these factory rounds have been pressure tested and are within SAAMI spec for pressure.

Do we then consider this valid load data from a published source?  Or, like me, do we swallow hard and work up to the load with the knot in your stomach feeling that you are in the "danger zone"?

Any thoughts?

[The_Shadow]

sqlbullet, As with many manuals these days especially the ones with pressure data, they show that they stop below the max working pressure in most cases.  Then the BIG Question is WHY?  First and far most, Lawyers and Law Suits.  Next is they have know way of knowing, what you are doing, how you are doing it or what gun you intend to use it in, thus leeway built in to the recipes, to keep beginners out of trouble. (staring at lower charges or drop charges by 5% or 10%)

I have to also ask the question...Do they have their ammo officially tested to be within SAAMI spec?  If they do not they leave themselves open for HUGE LAW SUITS!  I would think that their Insurance carrier would also look at that as well.

SAAMI provides an Average Working pressure of which is a range which the sample must be inside that range...see example.

Example of SAAMI 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.

Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Adverage pressure MAP of 35700 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi

The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.

Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi

An other thing is the method of the pressure test itself!  Universal test receiver vs. make shift strain gauges on outside of the barrel?

[REDLINE]

Thanks again, to Intercooler for sharing the commercial ammo for pull-down inspections and documentations!

Most definitely, a huge Thank You to Intercooler!  And to you too The_Shadow for all the pull-down inspections in conjunction with IC and the real world velocities he's openly provided us.

[REDLINE]

I am curious, though, about one thought.

As you can see, many of the "hot" factory loads exceed data provided by reloading manuals.  In theory, these factory rounds have been pressure tested and are within SAAMI spec for pressure.

Do we then consider this valid load data from a published source?  Or, like me, do we swallow hard and work up to the load with the knot in your stomach feeling that you are in the "danger zone"?

Any thoughts?

Heck, it's not really uncommon for some published load data to be adjusted further conservative over time.

Hornady used to suggested a max charge weight of 15.1 grains of Accurate No.7 behind a 155 grain XTP.  That is a really hot load and not safe IMO from experience, unless you think the expended brass cases are supposed to end up in two separate halves (primer grossly flattened).  They have since backed that down.  I emailed them and asked what changed?  They said they worked up the 15.1gr No.7 load with the Copper Crusher testing system and had since switched to a piezoelectric setup, saw clear differences, and adjusted load data accordingly.

IMR used to suggest something like a 14.0gr max book load of 800-X behind a 135gr Nosler in 10mm Auto.  Not good for a general max book load to the masses!  They don't do that anymore and have since gone overconservative IMO.

Those are two examples of many over time.  And that's not to mention that powders themselves can be tweaked by the powder manufactuers over time.  I don't trust any of the published data blindly anymore!

And that's on top of some platforms not even being suitable for 37,500 PSI MAP like the Colt Delta Elite, which I think is the main reason much (NOT ALL) of the published data has gone to being very conservative (~30,000 PSI for MAX Book Loads). 

[The_Shadow]

I think Raggedyman also deserves some recognition for the gel testing he's done over the time.  This is also quite time consuming but the reference of his data is very interesting as it compares to ammunition & bullet function...

I sometimes get so wrapped up in my stuff, I forget to take time out to give thanks to those of you behind the scenes...

I do understand the cost and time need to prepare, setup and conduct the testing and then put all the information out there for us to have the visual eye candy of your results and hard work...

Thanks and best regards! 

[REDLINE]

I think Raggedyman also deserves some recognition for the gel testing he's done over the time.  This is also quite time consuming but the reference of his data is very interesting as it compares to ammunition & bullet function...

I sometimes get so wrapped up in my stuff, I forget to take time out to give thanks to those of you behind the scenes...

I do understand the cost and time need to prepare, setup and conduct the testing and then put all the information out there for us to have the visual eye candy of your results and hard work...

Thanks and best regards! 

100% TRUE!  A big thanks to Raggedyman too!

[sqlbullet]

sqlbullet, As with many manuals these days especially the ones with pressure data, they show that they stop below the max working pressure in most cases.  Then the BIG Question is WHY?  First and far most, Lawyers and Law Suits.  Next is they have know way of knowing, what you are doing, how you are doing it or what gun you intend to use it in, thus leeway built in to the recipes, to keep beginners out of trouble. (staring at lower charges or drop charges by 5% or 10%)

I have to also ask the question...Do they have their ammo officially tested to be within SAAMI spec?  If they do not they leave themselves open for HUGE LAW SUITS!  I would think that their Insurance carrier would also look at that as well.

SAAMI provides an Average Working pressure of which is a range which the sample must be inside that range...see example.

Example of SAAMI 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.

Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Adverage pressure MAP of 35700 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi

The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.

Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi

An other thing is the method of the pressure test itself!  Universal test receiver vs. make shift strain gauges on outside of the barrel?

I get all that.

Core question still.  Do you consider averaged pull down data to be "valid" load data?

[Intercooler]

No problem Just wish I would have kept more of the different ones I had for pull-downs and gel testing.

Like you said big thanks to the following too:

- Shadow for the great pull-downs and turning them around a man that just took a couple hits of speed
- Deadguy for his SwampFox ammo donation
- Pacapcop for his DoubleTap ammo donation
- Mr.Redbull for our ammo deals
- Chopinbloc for his testing of the rounds in gel
- David Sneed for the ammo swaps we have done

Probably a couple I missed too somewhere.

Just wish I could score some new stuff to check out but getting towards the bottom of whats left. If you have something I will deal for it! 

I still want to see Ultramax and Norma if I can get a lead on a 1/2 box or so. Sadly I only see about 5-6 real 10mm suppliers in all the testing but we have smoked out some good and bad here.

[The_Shadow]

sqlbullet, As with many manuals these days especially the ones with pressure data, they show that they stop below the max working pressure in most cases.  Then the BIG Question is WHY?  First and far most, Lawyers and Law Suits.  Next is they have know way of knowing, what you are doing, how you are doing it or what gun you intend to use it in, thus leeway built in to the recipes, to keep beginners out of trouble. (staring at lower charges or drop charges by 5% or 10%)

I have to also ask the question...Do they have their ammo officially tested to be within SAAMI spec?  If they do not they leave themselves open for HUGE LAW SUITS!  I would think that their Insurance carrier would also look at that as well.

SAAMI provides an Average Working pressure of which is a range which the sample must be inside that range...see example.

Example of SAAMI 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.

Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Adverage pressure MAP of 35700 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi

The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.

Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi

An other thing is the method of the pressure test itself!  Universal test receiver vs. make shift strain gauges on outside of the barrel?

I get all that.

Core question still.  Do you consider averaged pull down data to be "valid" load data?

For the most part their stuff is valid data, those that were either non canister or proprietary powders, do fit regular powder profiles by their weight and yield.  But what I see, is that many of them are using what many handloaders have been using as well.  Also people are paying good money for their commercial loads, some of which lack the ballistic potential the 10mm is noted for.  That's the sad part!  

All of this gives you an idea that, with so many people using certain stuff, without blowing up anything, based on the actual results, is a good sign!  In my opinion, Underwood is the pinnacle of the performance for 10mm for the cost and premium components being used these days.

We use to see DT, as the good stuff, in years past.  However, we see that those are not up to the advertised levels today.
SwampFox was pushing the envelope and beyond with some of his offerings...

One thing is for sure, by getting a pull-down view of these items, lets you have a better understanding of what is being used, as based on their results and performance as well as quality control to a point.  You can go to powder manufacture's site or look up the data via the reloading manuals to further investigate what is found.  Also as handloaders, we can work too levels comfortable to us and our firearms.

[sqlbullet]

I tend to agree, and I personally do treat pull down data from a reputable mfg as valid load data, even if it exceeds book values.

I am sure there are those that would disagree with this practice for a wide variety of reasons.  Most people putting words in ink either in manuals or magazines, have to worry about the QC a home reloader exercises at their bench.  For my, when working near max, I hand weigh, inspect often, and am meticulous about things like COAL and crimp tension.  As a result I am quite sure my ammo surpasses any commercial load for quality.

[REDLINE]

For my, when working near max, I hand weigh, inspect often, and am meticulous about things like COAL and crimp tension.  As a result I am quite sure my ammo surpasses any commercial load for quality.

In terms of full power 10mm Auto I'm afraid you're 100% correct.  I only say it like that because I wish there was a near max 10mm commercial load available where the manufacturer did create loads as meticulous as some of our own homemade batches.  But, there doesn't seem to be.

In some of the commercial loads below max, maybe there is good consistency.  Hornady comes to mind.  Near max though, not that I've come across or heard of.

[sqlbullet]

The problem becomes price.  With that care to precision, I can only load about 50-75 per hour.  By the time I account for components, overhead, and labor I am at about $1.50 a round.  Which is about where Buffalo Bore it.

Clearly you can make a market there.  Garrett is doing it, but they are loading primarily heavy magnum which have far broader appeal than 10mm.

Kudo's to Underwood for bringing the market premium velocities at the price he does, even with the variances that I know cause you some heartburn.