Best round to have if you were charged by a crackhead with a knife?

[Bluebird5000]

This is an interesting video, cops seemed to show appropriate restraint and guy keeps coming at them with the knife despite being hit multiple times.

It got me to thinking, while I would feel okay making well-placed shots with a 9mm in this situation, I would feel much better if I were packing a 10mm with a deep penetrating heavy bullet that would break bones like 180gr Trophy Bonded or 200gr XTP.

What about you?

[Rojo27]

Shot placement is everything!  I have no concern with the 9mm the cops used in this situation.  I think they did a great job right up to the point where they didn't expect perpatrator to jump back up, so the officer closest to the perp let his guard down just a hair too soon.  Anyone of those connecting center mass shots could have ultimately been fatal and while we talk about this all the time here; the only sure immediate stop is central nervous system hits.  From the video, it appears to me the ultimate fight stopper was a CNS hit. 

But to answer your question if I knew I was going to fight a drugged out person or individual determined to commit suicide....  An M1a, AR15 or shotgun loaded with buckshot would be among my 1st choices. 

If I didn't know before hand I was going to a fight to the death with a crackhead or suicdal individual a reliable personal sidearm in 10mm would suit me fine.  I would shy away from the Federal Trophy Bond JSP in urban environment.  Underwood: 165gr & 180gr Gold Dot, 180gr XTP, 200gr XTP; Hirnady 180gr & 200gr, Buffalor Bore Tac-XP would be in my short lists. 

[Bluebird5000]

Have you seen the Bear Claw JSP penetrate a lot more than XTP? I'd consider it to be the tougher bullet but in the gel tests I've seen it seems to dp pretty much the same penetration that the XTP does.

Oh and yeah if I knew ahead of time I'd probably be packing a 12ga with buck haha.

[Rojo27]

Hey Bluebird.
I like the Federal Trophy Bond JSP just fine.  I've used it as a hunting round against large feral hogs and it worked well and passed through so I didn't recover any of the bullets.  Internal damage on the animals was significant.  It's certainly going to have zero trouble busting through any bone it encounters however, in a self defense situation against 2 legged predators (or crackheads) I want a little less penetration, more expansion and yes maybe a bigger punch and energy deposit (with projectile that still hits the 12" to 18" standard in FBI grade 10% ordinance gel.  For that matter, unless utilizing a very light frangible bullet I believe the innate power of the 10mm is going to make nearly any of the better constructed bullets "bone blind" meaning zero problem crushing through human bones (as opposed to some other common self defense pistol calibers).  In a self defense (against anything but heavy, ornery, wild 4 legged animals) I prefer the juiced up but easily manageable cartridges from reputable JHP projectiles manufacturers in the 155gr up to 200gr range.  I also favor the light for caliber 10mm Underwood Extreme Defender lines of defense.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTAdVZXLnb0

[Bluebird5000]

Thanks for the report on the Trophy Bonded I do like Underwood but have been eying it for hog hunting.

Yeah I do like Underwood's defender line. I haven't shot any animals with it but I have shot some pumpkins with the 65gr XTreme Defender @2100fps out of my .357 sig and they were pretty dramatic.

If I can do more hunting I'd like to shoot a small pig with one to give myself and everyone some real data on how they perform on life animals. I've seen some xtreme penetrator 'autopsies' on deer but that's it.

[Bruno747]

Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.

I have seen deer get rolled drop buckets of blood and still run 100 yards with two busted front shoulders.

As others have said once someone is really set on doing something it's hard to stop them without a CNS hit.

[Muskrat]

Well that was a bit of a mess...

Love 10mm though I do, it's not the cartridge I'd want in that scenario. I'd much rather have my .40, strange as it may sound.

Bottom line is that for a anti-personal round with no barriers to breach, the superior ballistics of the 10mm doesn't compensate for the increased recoil and the concurrent slower and/or less accurate follow-on shots. Just doesn't.

10mm is my favorite cartridge, so it's what I shoot USPSA and Steel Challenge matches with most of the time. Nothing super hot...usually 226 grains at 1065 fps, or 200 grains at 1150 fps. In a 150 person match I'll routinely be in the top 40% of all combined shooters and categories. But if I switch to my .40, I'll routinely be in the top 10%.

The guns are virtually identical, and I'm not physically challenged by the 10mm... I'm 6'5", 210 lbs, and I can palm a basketball. The difference in scores is purely due to the increased recoil of the 10mm and how that recoil slows down follow-on shots.

As others have said, only a CNS hit is a guaranteed fight stopper, and I'd rather get seven or eight 950fps slugs into the assailant than a five or six 1300 fps slugs. I think law enforcement was correct in ditching the 10mm...it's a fantastic round and my all-time favorite pistol cartridge, but the disadvantages outweigh the advantages for two-legged predators.

Just my opinion of course!

[TODDXUSMC]

I have to agree with Rojo, yes not many situations are like this. Drugs can however overcome many of the psychological factors of a perp in a shooting, it's even worse when they don't care if they die. To answer the OP and keep it to 10mm, it's just my opinion that the UW load with the GD 165 gr probably gives the best balance of energy, and penetration without over penetrating, and yes more rounds are better so maybe one of the Glock. The only way to actually guarantee a perp goes down immediately and stays down is a hit to the fatal T.


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[Kenk]

Yep the 165gr GD would be an excellent choice

[Sonny10MM]

Shot placement would be my first concern. When the guy started running and the officer started running backwards that's when shot placement becomes more difficult. I just don't think the LE wanted to shoot maybe related to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking and possible legal and civil charges. That being said I'd want a .45ACP or a 10MM with good ammo that was documented to penetrate less than 18" in ballistic gentian to help shooting anyone on the other side and reduce the chance of a lawsuit over shooting an innocent bystander.

[TODDXUSMC]

Shot placement would be my first concern. When the guy started running and the officer started running backwards that's when shot placement becomes more difficult. I just don't think the LE wanted to shoot maybe related to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking and possible legal and civil charges. That being said I'd want a .45ACP or a 10MM with good ammo that was documented to penetrate less than 18" in ballistic gentian to help shooting anyone on the other side and reduce the chance of a lawsuit over shooting an innocent bystander.

Agree with shot placement, and not trying to hurt bystanders. This brings up an incident that happened 25 mi south of Green Bay in a city called Appleton, our Detectives had to go down and determine what happened. I will second guess what they found. They found no wrongdoing I disagree. Once the hostage was taken they should have set up a perimeter and waited for SWAT/HRT to deal with the situation, instead)from what I can see in the video, they opened up on the hostage and perp. From what I have heard she's in a home as she received a TBI and is not in a state where she can really do anything.
Had that(hostage) been a member of my family I would be raising total hell in the state. This thing went wrong from the second they suspected a weapon and didn't draw theirs when perp backed up on them, hell perp had time to chamber a round. People all around WI are making excuses for the police from well there's very little crime there(its 20 miles from my house????we have crime here!!) to oh they just weren't trained enough. To be clear I am pro police (my brother is one in southern WI) but to see what happened here there is no excuse. WARNING EXTREMELY GRAPHIC. Updated for better understanding of post
https://youtu.be/nfj4Qr4uMis


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[Kenk]

Gosh

[4949shooter]

10mm 165 grain Gold Dot for me.

Though, shot placement is everything.