Paul Harrell on Turkey Ammo for Home Defense

[Kenk]

This video is incredibly drawn out, but is for sure thought provoking. I'm still prone to use my favorite coyote load (HEVI-Shot Dead Coyote) If penetration isn't a problem, and is not prohibited by State or Federal laws. Sure, the HEVI-Shot is a rip at 4-5 dollars a pull, but how often are you setting off a 9 pellet tungsten load  in your home : )

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2019/05/13/paul-harrell-turkey-ammo-home-defense/

[sqlbullet]

What I got from the video is that at home defense ranges a basic 12 gauge pheasant load is going to be pretty effective.

[Mike D]

I didn't watch that video but I've watched plenty of others and read plenty of studies. The consensus has been #2 shot is the smallest that should even be considered in a standard lead shot with #4 buck being the preferred minimum. Tungsten was not shot in the tests I've researched.

Anything smaller than #2 lead left a nasty but very shallow wound cavity and had little to no guarantee of effective 1 shot incapacitation.


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[sqlbullet]

So, I bit my tongue a bit in my previous reply as my opinions on this topic are not terribly mainstream.  Here it is:

A shotgun is a terrible home defense gun.

Sacrilege right?  Allow me to offer some defense of my position.  Let's start by examining the requirements of a home defense gun.

1.  It needs to be handy.  Let's face it, chances are if someone bursts into your home and you don't have the gun on you, you probably aren't going to get to the gun.  Especially if the gun is properly stored using the "not in use" rules of a. locked up and b. not stored with the ammo.

2.  It needs to be maneuverable in confined spaces.  Find the narrowest hallway in your home, which is usually three feet, and then maneuver around in there with any kind of shotgun.  Also give it a go in a closet or under a bed.  And consider how you are going to use it one handed when you need to use a phone, flashlight, or heaven forbid are wounded.

3.  It needs to be powerful enough to stop the threat if you have to fire the gun. What is the sense of having a home defense gun if it won't actually provide you any defense.

4.  It needs to minimize the probability of collateral casualties.  Homes are typically full of loved ones who you ideally don't want to hurt.  In fact, they are often who you are protecting.  And houses are often grouped in these collections called neighborhoods, and while exterior walls are sturdier stuff than sheetrock, bullets will go through them  Especially bullets that meet the requirements of specification #3.

5.  Hearing should be considered.  This is way down the list because living is clearly more important.  But hearing should be considered as a.  you are not likely to put on hearing protection and b.  even if you do, is everyone else in your home going to be notified to gear up?

So, lets grade a shotgun on these.

1.  Handy.  I don't know about you, but I don't watch Nick at Night or Gilmore Girls re-runs (when the wife has the remote) with my 870 or Model 500 on my lap.  And if you do, sooner or later you end up with a loaded gun propped up against a sofa that gets knocked over.  Shotgun is not likely to be with you when you need it, and if it was it likely is not stored/handled safely.   F

2.  Even a riot gun gets hard to move around in a hallway, closet or under a bed.  D

3.  Shotguns loaded with buckshot or slugs have this one in spades (A), but if they are loaded with birdshot this drops to a (B - F) depending on the distance involved.  At 3-5' birdshot is still about as effective as buck or slugs.  At 10' the wounds start to get more bloody and superficial and by 15' birdshot is not effective at all.  However, given that most home defense distances will be less than 15' and given the undisputed effectiveness of slugs and buckshot the shotgun rules this category.  A

4.  When loaded with those effective rounds, the shotgun becomes a penetration powerhouse.  Unless you have a brick house slugs are likely to make it outside the home if fired at an exterior wall, and will definitely do some damage to the folks in the next room.  And while buckshot will likely be stopped by sheathing and siding and not make it outside the home, it zips right through interior walls.  And there are 15 plus pellets now careening around your home.  Since we gave the shotgun an "A" in effectiveness, we have to assume we are using the rounds that plow through walls with ease.  If you are gonna use birdshot which won't make it to the next room you can get an "A" here, but drop 3 to a "D".  C

5.  Shotguns are loud.  And there isn't much you can do about this.  Handguns can be suppressed much more effectively than a shotgun.  C

Shotguns get a C- (1.8 point average) as a home defense gun. 

At least in the book of sqlbullet.

[Kenk]

Great thoughts on this
Thanks!

[jtracy1223]

Well said. I kept an 18" 870 in the bedroom closet for years filled with federal flight control 00 buck . At some point i reevaluated and could not think of many scenarios i would go for the shotgun in the closet before the handgun on my belt or night stand. I replaced the shotgun with an ar carbine my wife was comfertable and proficient shooting. She has not mastered handgun shooting but she is murder on 2 liter bottles between 25 and 75 yards with the AR.

So, I bit my tongue a bit in my previous reply as my opinions on this topic are not terribly mainstream.  Here it is:

A shotgun is a terrible home defense gun.

Sacrilege right?  Allow me to offer some defense of my position.  Let's start by examining the requirements of a home defense gun.

1.  It needs to be handy.  Let's face it, chances are if someone bursts into your home and you don't have the gun on you, you probably aren't going to get to the gun.  Especially if the gun is properly stored using the "not in use" rules of a. locked up and b. not stored with the ammo.

2.  It needs to be maneuverable in confined spaces.  Find the narrowest hallway in your home, which is usually three feet, and then maneuver around in there with any kind of shotgun.  Also give it a go in a closet or under a bed.  And consider how you are going to use it one handed when you need to use a phone, flashlight, or heaven forbid are wounded.

3.  It needs to be powerful enough to stop the threat if you have to fire the gun. What is the sense of having a home defense gun if it won't actually provide you any defense.

4.  It needs to minimize the probability of collateral casualties.  Homes are typically full of loved ones who you ideally don't want to hurt.  In fact, they are often who you are protecting.  And houses are often grouped in these collections called neighborhoods, and while exterior walls are sturdier stuff than sheetrock, bullets will go through them  Especially bullets that meet the requirements of specification #3.

5.  Hearing should be considered.  This is way down the list because living is clearly more important.  But hearing should be considered as a.  you are not likely to put on hearing protection and b.  even if you do, is everyone else in your home going to be notified to gear up?

So, lets grade a shotgun on these.

1.  Handy.  I don't know about you, but I don't watch Nick at Night or Gilmore Girls re-runs (when the wife has the remote) with my 870 or Model 500 on my lap.  And if you do, sooner or later you end up with a loaded gun propped up against a sofa that gets knocked over.  Shotgun is not likely to be with you when you need it, and if it was it likely is not stored/handled safely.   F

2.  Even a riot gun gets hard to move around in a hallway, closet or under a bed.  D

3.  Shotguns loaded with buckshot or slugs have this one in spades (A), but if they are loaded with birdshot this drops to a (B - F) depending on the distance involved.  At 3-5' birdshot is still about as effective as buck or slugs.  At 10' the wounds start to get more bloody and superficial and by 15' birdshot is not effective at all.  However, given that most home defense distances will be less than 15' and given the undisputed effectiveness of slugs and buckshot the shotgun rules this category.  A

4.  When loaded with those effective rounds, the shotgun becomes a penetration powerhouse.  Unless you have a brick house slugs are likely to make it outside the home if fired at an exterior wall, and will definitely do some damage to the folks in the next room.  And while buckshot will likely be stopped by sheathing and siding and not make it outside the home, it zips right through interior walls.  And there are 15 plus pellets now careening around your home.  Since we gave the shotgun an "A" in effectiveness, we have to assume we are using the rounds that plow through walls with ease.  If you are gonna use birdshot which won't make it to the next room you can get an "A" here, but drop 3 to a "D".  C

5.  Shotguns are loud.  And there isn't much you can do about this.  Handguns can be suppressed much more effectively than a shotgun.  C

Shotguns get a C- (1.8 point average) as a home defense gun. 

At least in the book of sqlbullet.

[sqlbullet]

Well said. I kept an 18" 870 in the bedroom closet for years filled with federal flight control 00 buck . At some point i reevaluated and could not think of many scenarios i would go for the shotgun in the closet before the handgun on my belt or night stand. I replaced the shotgun with an ar carbine my wife was comfertable and proficient shooting. She has not mastered handgun shooting but she is murder on 2 liter bottles between 25 and 75 yards with the AR.

I think AR Pistols with a good brace are a great bedside gun for home defense.  Going though my scale....

1.  I would like give the AR way better grade here than the shotgun, and an AR pistol is going to run about 10-12" shorter than a riot gun, but if I am honest, it is only marginally better for watching TV in the living room.  We will go "D"

2.  Maneuverable in aces.  Short enough to swing like a pistol, but with enough extra contact points to mae it easy and comfortable to shoot, as you wife has discovered.  "A"

3.  Again, aces.  Even with an 8" barrel, 55 grain pills are 2350 to 2400 fps.  Even the heavier 69-77 grain bullets will be over the 2200 threshold in most cases.  Tumble, break, expand, and stop.  "A"

4.  223/5.56 tends to tumble after going though a wall. Sheetrock + OSB/Plywood will stop them, and three layers of sheetrock usually will too.  It ranks near the top of the stack for limiting barrier penetration and still succeeding on item 3.  "B"

5.  F.  No doubt about it, a short barrel 223 pistol is gonna be loud.  You can knock it down some with a suppressor, and there are good options that won't kill the guns maneuverability, but even then in an enclosed space you will only get to a C.

So, 2.4 (C+) or 2.8 (B-) with a suppressor.

Just for kicks and giggles lets review a Glock 20 or 29

1.  "A" - Handguns are easy to keep on your person.  And, depending on you holster selection are easy to keep holstered when you "potato in" to the couch at night.  Paddle and many IWB designs have a clip that allows you to remove the gun and holster together safely.

2.  "B" - While a gun is supremely maneuverable and easy to use one handed, it is harder to shoot accurately, especially under stress.  That is the reason I docked it a grade.

3.  "B" - "Handguns are for fighting your way to the rifle you never should have put down" as the saying goes.  That said, good defensive ammo is reasonably effective for defense against the average miscreant if you take you time and place your shots.

4.  "C" - Gotta clobber somewhat here.  Ammo that is good at #3 will often just go and go and go through sheetrock.  The nose plugs and it acts like an FMJ just punching along.  I went "C" because you can find ammo that does a reasonable job on both, but you gotta be selective.

5.  "C" - Maybe a "D" for a 10mm, but again it depends alot on the load.  Fact is you can select ammo for flash and blast suppression that are effective still.  And a suppressed handgun gets you to an "A" here, though perhaps at an expense on #1.

2.8 to 3.2 for a 10mm, or really about any handgun.  And in reality, that is about as good as it gets.