Speeds Feeds and Ballistics -- Norma 10MM, Jesse James and Underwood

[mr.revolverguy]

30 Year old Norma 10MM was test across the chronograp and into ballistics gel. Thanks to Overkill338 I was able to get my hands on some. Originally this ammo was spec'd at 1400fps as seen in this video 30 years of storage had a negative effect on velocity.

I also compared the new comer Jesse James 10MM against long time 10MM kings of Underwood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHBM1cZOo_Y&feature=youtu.be

[The_Shadow]

Yes NORMA was loaded slightly higher back in the very early days, later production was slightly down loaded.  Early 200 grain at 1200+ fps and 170 grain at 1400 fps.

The Jesse James 180 grain bullet is more than likely a ZERO brand bullet as sold by Roze Dist. http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RZD&Product_Code=R134-A&Category_Code=ZBJ-40SW

Underwood ammo is what it is, great high energy and impulse performance.  Those SPEER Gold Dots being a bonded bullet are fantastic performers!
Thank you Mr. Revolver Guy and Overkill338.

[Graybeard]

Yes, thank you Mr. Revolver Guy and Overkill338. I'm glad none of those bullets decided to come out of the side of the gel and kill your phone. I have to say I was impressed with the consistency of the Underwood ammo. The Jesse James stuff, not so much.

[Overkill338]

Very nice !

That's the reason I carry those 165 Underwoods. They told me they consistently penetrate 13"-14" and dump energy fast. I keep them in my 29 so I don't have to worry about over penetration.

Mrrevolverguy,  thanks so much for testing these!

[Trapper6L]

Great presentation, as always. Thanks.

[Kenk]

Thanks guys!

[mr.revolverguy]

Luckily Greyeard that is a retired phone. Believe it or not I actually won a galaxy samsung note 9 at a charity event which let me reture my old phone. So I figured I would put it to work in pairing it up with my Chronograph.

Thanks for the info on the bullets for the Jesse James ammo. One thing I did not say during the video and I realized it after I had shot all of them, for some reason the JJ ammo seemed to have more felt recoil than the others.

I had a ball testing these, I was so excited like a kid at Christmas.

[TODDXUSMC]

Great workup Mr. Revolver Guy! Awesome video!
I am curious as to why the Norma performance was less than expected?
Ammunition usually doesn't deteriorate unless temp gets too high for extended periods or it was submerged. As an ammunition collector I don't see any evidence of either based on the box condition or coloration of the brass. I am wondering if similar to some of today's companies, they overestimated velocity.
The bullets on the Norma look like old Nosler.400 cal bullets, I am sure Nosler just copied the design but they are neat to see. I shot alot of the 170gr Nosler through my 4006 when the  40S&W first came out. It fed quite well.
Again, great work and a great video!!



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[The_Shadow]

Todd, the ammo didn't deteriorate...NORMA reduced their loads as the original stuff was very hot loaded...

Norma actually produced three factory loads for the 10mm.
MADE BY FFV NORMA AB – S-670 40 AMOTFORS - SWEDEN
200gr JTC @ 1200fps    Norma Ref #11001
170gr JHP @ 1300fps    Norma Ref #11002 early lots (83-84) were loaded to 1400fps/740fpe
165gr JHP @ 1400fps    Norma Ref #11003 ?

NORMA Load Data back in the day;
Caliber 10 mm Auto 
BBL Length 125 mm         
Bullet N0 61001
Full jacket truncated cone 
Bullet weight 200 gr. / 13,0 Gram                   
Diameter 0.400"  10,16mm
COAL 1.26" 32,0mm
Primer Win. L-P
NORMA Powder R-123    11.6 grains 0,750 gram
Velocity 1181 fps 360 mps
Energy 621 ft/lbs 842 joule

NORMA (OLD)



Norma Pull down 200 grain TMJ Truncated Cone showed
NORMA R-123? 9.6 / 9.8 grains  (Early loads were said to be 12.0 grains)

Norma Pull Down 170 grain JHP Power Cavity showed
NORMA R-123?  12.8 grains (early lots (83-84) were loaded to 1400fps/740fpe)

This powder is no longer being sold or made but was in the burn range of Accurate arm #9

[TODDXUSMC]

Thanks Shadow much appreciated information! Still a bit confused though, is this box tested one of the first loads or reduced? The information on the box claims 165gr@1400fps yet the average for the 3 shots was just over 1200fps, two of the rounds only averaged 1165(thinking this is what most of the box would average). The statement was made in an earlier post as well as inferenced in the video thar 30yrs of storage had a negative effect on the velocity of the anmo. I agree with you that the ammunition didn't deteriorate. However from 1400fps to 1165fps is a big reduction that the claimed velocity on the box didn't reflect.


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[The_Shadow]

Norma probably didn't change the packaging to reflect the reduced loads and velocities based on what was found in pull downs.
Overkill338 got these that were tested from the same guy that sent Intercooler for pull down, states as being 165 grain and they actually weighed 170 grains.
Link to that pull down here: http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/norma-165-grain-jhp-(bullet-170gr)-pull-down/

One thing that was surprising was Intercooler tested the ones he shot from this batch and here's what he got:
Intercooler's Tested Velocity:
EAA Limited Pro 4.75" 1309, 1308, 1293. Average = 1303.33 FPS/ 622 LBS
EAA Hunter 6" 1372, 1342, 1303. Average = 1339 FPS/ 657 LBS

So did they have some cartridges with more powder that were not pulled down in that box?  Did this powder meter that poorly?  That may be likely looking at his test shots...

When Intercooler tested the 170 Norma that one showed only 1237 fps and the one he sent to Choppingblock did 1219 fps with 23.1" in gel from his firearm.