Another new 10MM at Shot?

[inv136]

I'm game for a Commander sized single stack 10mm. I just cant afford a custom gun in that configuration.

You mean like this one? My special order Dan Wesson stainless Specialist Commander.

[Keiichi]

I EDC a Glock 29 as well, and don't find it a problem.  While not as slim as I once was, I am not a walrus either.

But I will acknowledge that a G29 is thicker than a 1911.

It's precisely the thickness that's the issue for me - that and the grip's front-to-back dimension. The G29 is not comfortable to carry and not comfortable to shoot, for me. I'm a smaller than average guy, and it's difficult for me to conceal even something as small as the P365 without obvious printing, but the printing issue is less significant than the comfort issue. If it's not comfortable to carry and shoot, I'm disinclined to do so.

[2AinVA]

I'm game for a Commander sized single stack 10mm. I just cant afford a custom gun in that configuration.

RIA MS?  Fusion?


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[Patriot]

Yeah, I had a 29.  What a fat ass clunky plastic POS that was.

Tony

I'm not a huge Glock fan, but I own a 29, and would have to say I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Fat, yes. Clunky POS? Odd point of view, unless you had a lemon.

[Overkill338]

Yeah, I had a 29.  What a fat ass clunky plastic POS that was.

Tony

I'm not a huge Glock fan, but I own a 29, and would have to say I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Fat, yes. Clunky POS? Odd point of view, unless you had a lemon.

I'm definitely agreeing with you. I'm 6'0 160 lbs and even when I was 135 lbs, I still carried a G30 IWB. I have long fingers, maybe that's why I've always been comfortable with the 30 and the 29. I run the large back strap on my Gen4 19.

I have no problem admitting the 29 is thicker than a 1911 or guns of other calibers, but i still dont see how someone calls it a POS. I dont like the XDM but i dont call it a POS.

[Keiichi]

For the record, speaking for myself, I don't think the G29 is a POS. (I know nobody said I said that, but... for the record.)

I do think, for me - someone who isn't a big guy and someone who genuinely values slimness, lightness, and comfort carrying and shooting a pistol - it's too big in a couple dimensions, and uncomfortable for me to carry and to shoot.

I also think my G20 is uncomfortable to shoot, mostly due to the size and shape of the grip. I don't carry it except in a thigh holster when I'm hunting. Won't be selling it anytime soon.

It would be pretty straightforward for a company like Sig or Ruger or Kel-Tek or any of the others to come out with a pistol better than a G29 for people like me. I think it would be a great seller.

[sqlbullet]

I am not sure it is that straightforward. 

It seems like it should be.  I mean they make thin compact designs in 9mm, 45 ACP and 40 S&W.  38 Super too, though they are pretty rare.

But physics is a mean girlfriend sometimes.  If we examine those other cartridges in a hypothetical compact gun with a 3" barrel we can see what makes the 10mm different.

First, let's take a look a the raw forces involved in firing these guns.  For the sake of normalizing comparison I will use bullet weights of very similar sectional density across the calibers.  I chose heavier bullets simply because I had good comparable velocity data for those weights from ballistics by the inch. Those weights are 230 grain 45 ACP (SD .161), 180 grain 10mm/40 (SD .161) and 147 grain 9mm (SD .167).

Using those bullet weights and velocities from a 3" barrel I calculated the relative force of the 10mm to the others.  I am gonna cheat and not show my work.

The 10mm exerts 49% more force on the slide/barrel than 45 ACP, 63% more than 40 S&W and 120% more than 9mm.

There are two ways to deal with all that extra force.  More mass or (much) stronger springs.  More mass and you get a Glock 29.  More springs and you get a gun you can't manually operate due to strong springs and short grips.

What they could do?  Single stack the gun, which would address the grip issue for smaller hands.  But, to keep the slide mass up the slide still needs to be about the same width, or it has to be longer.

The Grand Power rotating barrel could address this issue potentially, but in a traditional Browning style tilt lock, not sure 10mm will be reliable in a less than G29 mass gun.

[BEEMER!]

I don't know how many of you guys ever looked into the Boberg Guns.  Arne Boberg designed this firearm with a rotating barrel and a reverse feed magazine.  Because of family problems he had to sell the company and Gordon Bond bought it and is making the 9mm's.

The slide moving back pulls the next round from the mag and uses up the energy to reduce the recoil spring size.  I have seen Arne shoot a 9mm without a recoil spring in it and return the slide to battery by flicking his wrist.

The barrel is 100% supported and the 9mm were very good guns.  They are much shorter than comparable barrel length pistols. 

Very interesting design, maybe not practical for 10mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TSva89jbNM

[Keiichi]

All good points, thanks sqlbullet.

I was probably exaggerating to use straightforward, but technology can do and has done amazing things to massage firearm physics in innovative designs. It would be interesting if the slide mass issue could be resolved with a tungsten insert, for instance. That wouldn't reduce the overall weight of the pistol necessarily, but could allow for a narrower slide.

I guess I'd just like to see more options on the market.

The Boberg is certainly an interesting design, Beemer. Rented one in 9mm a few years ago... it was an odd animal and had several malfunctions in the 30 or so rounds I fired through it, but it was not inaccurate and was comfortable to shoot. I haven't followed it closely since the purchase by Bond - have they resolved the issue with non-crimped rounds pulling apart during cycling?

[BEEMER!]

I have shot a lot of rounds through both my 9mm and my 45 ACP Bobergs and have never had a case/bullet separation.

The main problem is Blazer and the cheap red box Federal you buy at Walmart are plated bullets and not jacketed.  You can't get a good crimp on them.  There are other brands that do not crimp also but those two are the worst.

Bond has an extensive list of recommended ammo and recommends WWB for range work.

[StockIIBoss]

I may need to revisit the G29 since it doesn't appear anything slimmer is on the way to market. The smallest 10mm I have is the EAA compact (it's the one I modified to accept a flat recoil spring). But still, it's about the size of my Glock 19. My favorite is the Stock II, but heeaavvy! The other one is the converted 40 S&W Chief's Special. It's the perfect gun for a conversion to 10mm since it shares mags with the 45ACP, and same ejection port size (all you have to do is remove the spacer in the magazine and bore the chamber for 10mm. Still heavy, though. Diamondback might be brave enough to try a small 10mm based off their new compact DB AM2, which is really stout and thin enough (slide is .95") for me to carry. I have it in 9mm. Since I know someone who knows someone, I should petition for it!

[Pablo]

So the LW LARGE frame in 29/30 is really a no show?  There is something on their site, but it just looks only to have a shorter grip.What am I missing?

[StockIIBoss]

I have shot a lot of rounds through both my 9mm and my 45 ACP Bobergs and have never had a case/bullet separation.

The main problem is Blazer and the cheap red box Federal you buy at Walmart are plated bullets and not jacketed.  You can't get a good crimp on them.  There are other brands that do not crimp also but those two are the worst.

Bond has an extensive list of recommended ammo and recommends WWB for range work.

I tested a bunch of ammo in the Boberg for separation issues. Had a couple. I don't know if Bond Arms has modified the internals, but I do like the new one with the longer slide. Doesn't look as goofy to me.     Here's a link to my article. http://commonbullets.com/wp/archives/1086

[Keiichi]

So the LW LARGE frame in 29/30 is really a no show?  There is something on their site, but it just looks only to have a shorter grip.What am I missing?

They certainly improved one important dimension: reducing the front-to-back grip length by 5mm.

Doesn't change the other dimensions at all, though - overall width and weight being at the top of the list - that keep me from carrying the 29.

I certainly will be picking up at least one of their new frames for my G20 (possibly a second for my MechTech if it functions).

[Pablo]

So the LW LARGE frame in 29/30 is really a no show?  There is something on their site, but it just looks only to have a shorter grip.What am I missing?

They certainly improved one important dimension: reducing the front-to-back grip length by 5mm.

Doesn't change the other dimensions at all, though - overall width and weight being at the top of the list - that keep me from carrying the 29.

I certainly will be picking up at least one of their new frames for my G20 (possibly a second for my MechTech if it functions).

Yes I have the G20 LW frame. It shoots WAY better, and more importantly shoots more accurately in my hands at least. I was hoping the G29 LW would be pretty small, well it is smaller so thanks for that.

Polymer80 should have a G20 frame at some point.