Recoil in 10 mm

[Ruger4570]

The question i have for you auto folks is do you change recoil springs  for the load ? I have seen a large amout of diffence in the loading in factory ammo. Iremember the colt delta eltie. The frame v got beat to peces becausevof tbe  recoil

[The_Shadow]

Well 1911 style guns are different that other makes...1911 they use heavier main spring, flat bottom firing pin stops in addition to recoil spring setups.  Where as some guns you can just change the recoil spring setup and done!  I run 22 lbs in my Glock 20 and 22 lbs in the S&W 1006, these are non captive springs...

[sqlbullet]

Welcom to the forum.  Good questions and you are going to hear lots of different opinions!

Iremember the colt delta eltie. The frame v got beat to peces becausevof tbe  recoil

This is commonly held folklore that doesn't stand up to an examination of the facts.

High round count 1911 frames for many years would exhibit a crack in the frame rail above the slide stop cutout.  This manifestation pre-dated the Delta Elite and was a known issue that usually did not occur until after 100,000 rounds.  It was non-impacting to function and represented a design flaw in the gun which created a focus point for stress during operation.

The 10mm, being about 50% more energetic than 45 ACP, caused the crack to appear much sooner in the round count of the frame  This resulted in a much higher number of guns being returned to Colt for "repair" and in the rumor that the 1911 could not handle the 10mm.  Colt decided action was needed to stop the cracking, mostly to prevent unneeded repair requests that were costing them money to keep customers happy.  Their solution was ingenious and demonstrates how false the idea that the frame was being beaten up by the recoil.

They removed the part of the frame where cracking occured



No other changes were made to the frame.  It was not "beefed up" in any other area and the only change was to remove the offending section of rail.



There are many good and valid reasons to look to another platform for 10mm, but lack of strength in the 1911 design is not one of them.  Yes, I am a fan of the 1911, and I own 3.5 1911 pattern guns in 10mm (the .5 is a conversion of a Para P12-45 to 10mm that is not complete).  But, it is not my only or even primary 10mm platform.

The question i have for you auto folks is do you change recoil springs  for the load ? I have seen a large amout of diffence in the loading in factory ammo.

When I first got into 10mm, I bought into the hype and put stiff recoil springs in all my 10mm's.  This included two EAA witness guns and a Para P16-40 that was converted to 10mm.  I ran 22 lb springs in the Witnesses and a 24 lb spring in the 1911.

But as I read more and more, I came to realize a truth, especially about the 1911.  Springs store energy.  That same spring which helps slow the slide down as it moves out of battery and to the rear, speeds it up when it moves back forward and into battery.

Think about it for a moment.  When the slide reaches it's full rearward travel in a 1911, what stops it?  It impacts the frame, of course, either directly by the slide recoil spring housing hitting the barrel bed of the frame, or more likely, that same impact through the guide rod base and compressed recoil spring.  In either case, those are big, beefy parts.



Now, what stops the slide of a 1911 when it moves back forward into battery?  What keeps if from just heading downrange off the frame rails?  The barrel lower lug feet and  link pin.  Not nearly as beefy.

By overspringing the gun, you really aren't keeping it from breaking. You're just changing what breaks. --John Travis (https://rangehot.com/1911-spring-information/)

The 1911 frame can take it.  Yes a 1911 frame will wear out faster shooting full house 10mm ammo than it will shooting mil-spec 45 ACP ball ammo.  But in both cases the round count of the frame will be hundrends of thousands of rounds, if not millions.

So, what should you run?  Well, you pay your money and you get your answers.  Lots of them.

Ned Christiansen of Michiguns did some testing many years ago.  Based on his inspection based tests he suggested a flat bottom firing pin stop in the slide, a 25 lb mainspring and an 18.5 lb recoil spring.  I run this set-up in my 10mm 1911's and it is very effective.  The flat bottom firing pin stop alters the leverage the slide has on the hammer, taking much more force right after unlock for the slide to cock the hammer.  This is force that is removed without being stored in a recoil spring to later impact the barrel lugs.  The stronger mainspring also helps with this, and adds the benefit of more reliable primer ignition.  The 18.5 lb recoil spring is above standard for 45 ACP, but still keeps the slide velocity down as the slide returns to battery, reducing the force on the barrel lugs compared to a 22 or 24 lb recoil spring.  Neds testing protocol was to install a shok-buff and count rounds until it required replacement.  With the set-up above, the round count before the shok-buff was worn out for 10mm ammo and 45 ACP ball ammo was about the same.

This opinion is commonly held among most top 1911 pistolsmiths.  Use the lightest recoil spring that will provide reliable function, and retard unlock and slide velocity with a flat bottom firing pin stop and a heavier mainspring, unless the heavier mainspring negatively impacts trigger pull.  Rule of thumb is, as I recall, that for each pound more mainspring, the trigger pull weight will increase between 1/8 and 1/4 lb.  So replacing a 23 lb mainspring with a 25 lb will change a 4.5 lb trigger pull to 4.75-5 lbs.  Well polished engagement surfaces will mitigate this increase.

http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/10mm1/10mm1.htm

https://www.m1911.org//technic26.htm

Bill Wilson has offerered a different opinion:  https://www.m1911.org//technic1.htm

He suggest, as you imply in your post, that recoil spring weight should vary between 18.5# for "target" loads and 24# full house loads.  He suggests the heaviest spring you can run without experiencing failures to lock the slide back or extraction related jams.  Use a shok-buff, and it should last at least 750-1000 rounds, and the springs should be replaced every 2000 rounds.  He also defines full house loads as a load that makes IPSC major, and a target load as 20% less than that.  It should be noted that major power factor loads in 10mm are, imho, light target loads.  A 200 grain 10mm at 850 fps makes major

I apply the same rules to my EAA Witness guns, and flat bottom firing pin stops for them are available from a couple sources these days.

The Glock, and probably the XDm, live by different rules.  The unlock timing of the Glock platform is very much impacted by the strength of the recoil spring, unlike the 1911 where it has almost no impact (see http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/10mm1/10mm1.htm).

Again there are two schools of thought here.  One is the "change all the things" camp, the other is the "don't fix what ain't broke" camp.  I spent much time in the first camp, but now tend to be in the second camp.  I shoot my guns as they come from the factory unless I have an identifiable problem that a heavier recoil spring can fix.  I have not had any issues to date with factory ammo or with ammo that adheres to specified book max load limits.  I have not ordered or fired any Underwood ammo, though I have run some Buffalo Bore which is similarly hot.  I also have fired a good deal of the earlier Double Tap offerings that met their velocity claims.

If you are going to run loads that are consistently at or over book max in your 10mm, a heavier spring may well be indicated.  Your brass will tell you with an increase in bulges and "glock smiles"

[Graybeard]

That's as excellent and concise explanation of that issue as I've ever seen Sqlbullet. Bravo!

Since I bought a blued DE in the late 80's I might add a couple of things. The original DE came with two recoil springs and a standard GI guide rod. Since the recoil spring setup was one spring inside of the other and they rubbed/bound against each other the felt recoil from shot to shot was different. I think that had a lot to do with the frame battering idea. Apparently Colt couldn't come up with a 23lb single spring......

I switched mine out with for a Wilson full length guide rod setup and ran it with a 16lb recoil spring and shok buff for years. Only after I started reloading and got a chronograph did I switch back to a 23lb recoil spring. The tiny bit of lock time gained by the heavier recoil spring made a difference in velocity. The functionality of the gun was unchanged. You are absolutely correct, the wear on the swing link and link pin did increase.

Fast forward to today and I have a Kimber 10mm that comes with a 18.5lb recoil spring and full length quite rod as stock. A couple of months ago I tried the old 10gr of 800X 180gr XTP load in it. I worked up slowly and when I fired that load with only one round in the magazine it had way too much slide speed. The round in the mag was pushed down with enough force to push down the follower and stand the round almost straight up in the mag. The primer was a little flattened, but the case wasn't bulged.

I think this pretty much confirms your and Bill Wilson's points. It also tells me I need a flat bottom firing pin stop for that gun.

[Trapper6L]

I have a Remington R1 Long Slide 10mm. I changed all of the springs in mine to the heaviest recoil spring Wolff has for the gun. And I changed the hammer spring to a 25lb. I've also put a recoil buffer in it from Wilson which to me is nothing more than a silicone pad. My purpose for the changes was not in consideration of the frame being beaten to death but to keep the brass from entering orbit. The thing was chunking brass 50-75 feet and that's ridiculous. What I gained though was kinda surprising. The recoil went down considerably. It's not near as violent as it was previously. The gun still launches brass into orbit but it's a lot more pleasurable to shoot over the course of a day. I'm also not seeing the wear at the back end of the frame like it was originally. The blue was almost gone from the frame in less than 200 rounds. I reblued it and it hasn't changed in the last 500 rounds so that problem has been averted. I normally shoot full house loads of 180gr bullets to 135gr. There is no reason to change springs to lighter springs for the 135gr shooting.

[sep]

I own three 10mms. A G40, Dan Wesson Bruin and an STI Perfect 10.

I run stock springs in all of them. I don't recall the spring change interval in the Glock but Dan Wesson told me to replace the recoil spring every 2500 rounds. STI told me to replace the recoil spring based on the type of rounds I am shooting. 3000-4000 rounds for full power 10mm and 5000-6000 rounds for wimpy target loads.

So, I'm just replacing the springs when they are supposed to be replaced. Springs are pretty inexpensive so changing them out a little early isn't a bad thing either. They all function fine with everything I shoot. So, no need to alter spring weights based on load intensity.