Are the Pricey 10mm Carbines Worth Buying?

[Papajohn]

I haven't posted here in quite awhile, too busy with work and other guns, calibers and projects.  But after buying my third Kel-Tec 40 and realizing I don't trust it, I want to explore the 10mm carbines......and there are a bunch I never heard of.   Reading threads here for the past few hours, I've realized that despite the prices, you don't always get what you pay for, hence a lot of apprehension on my part about buying something that doesn't have a million glowing reviews. 

The Hi-Point 10mm Carbine gets a lot of good press, those that bought it seem very pleased, and I kinda like it.........but it's still a Hi-Point.  Should I just get over my prejudice and try one?  It's not just that it's fugly and weird looking, I don't like proprietary magazines that only hold ten rounds, I'd rather have something can take Glock mags, maybe even other magazines.  I've been online for a couple days, looking at carbines from Theuron Defense, TNW Aero, CMMG, H&K and a few others, and I'm still having a hard time deciding on anything.  Most of the choices are $1000-$1500, and I have no idea what's worth buying.  Some have NO reviews, which could mean a couple things......either no one is buying them, or those that did haven't found anything to bitch about. 

So who has a good experience with one of the guns aside from the Hi-Point?  I've thought seriously about getting the H-P in 10mm, then trying a Theuron Defense 40S&W, because it can take the same magazines as my duty gun, which is a S&W MP-40. 

I sold my Witness 10mm because I seldom shot it (tired of chasing brass into the next zip code) but I still like the 10mm, and I really enjoy pistol-caliber carbines.   I have said (on other fora) for fifteen years that if someone offered a gas-operated 10mm carbine that used good magazines and had a decent trigger, they'd sell every one they could build.   I'd rather not have to buy a blowback design, I already have a Mech-Tech Carbine in 460 Rowland, and I'm tired of having to load it down to avoid stretching the brass until it separates.....because it will.

Anyone have any experience with the Alex Pro Firearms (APF) carbine in ANY caliber?  Right now that's where I'm looking.  Also the CMMG Guard.  Both seem overpriced.

And an aside to the handloaders......is Longshot still the powder of choice for longer barrels?  I also have a lot of AA#9, and there's always 4227 (which I love in the 32-20 Marlin), among others.  Your thoughts?   

[Ridgerunner665]

AA9 will get you more velocity using current published data than any other powder.

Longshot comes into its own with really long bullets in 10mm....190 CEB, 220 cast, etc.

[Keiichi]

I would be remiss if I didn't put in a pitch for the one I settled on.

A MechTech upper for a Glock 20. I picked up a used G20 Gen 4 for cheap and dedicated the lower to it.

It's actually classified as a pistol accessory, so it ships right to your home. More details on their site and forum.

I absolutely love it. It's my favorite gun to shoot, by far.

It has its minor drawbacks:
it is weight-forward, which makes it seem heavier than it is in hand;
there's no option for a full top rail and short bottom rail with no side rails;
there's no field strip, and complete disassembly has its quirks and cautions (this may be more significant depending on what you plan to use it for);
no option for a threaded barrel from the factory;
no last round hold open

These things are outweighed in my opinion by its strengths:
weighs about what your average AR weighs (mine's right about 9lbs with all of the accoutrements and a full 20 round mag in it);
excellent construction and top notch machining;
mags feed through the grip, so no wasted space and it shoots almost like a bullpup;
smooth long recoil thanks to the straight blowback mechanism, and it makes full power 10's feel almost tame;
100% reliable with all 10mm and .40 S&W I've shot through it;
as accurate as I'd hope any pistol round to be;
lots of customization options;
(mine) takes Glock mags, but is also available for 1911s and XDs

The customer service in my experience has been top notch, though I haven't had any issues that required sending it back.

[Papajohn]

Keiichi, it's funny you'd bring up the Mech-Tech, I've had one for eight or nine years!  Mine is a 460 Rowland with a 1911 lower, and while I like it, I wish I had gone the same route you did, and gotten the 10mm/Glock setup.



It's scary accurate with ammo it likes, handles 45ACP quite well, but it's still a blowback design, and will stretch brass until it separates if you runs your loads too warm.  I like bigger bullets and wanted more than the 10mm/40 S&W back then, so I got this one, but the 10mm is (IMHO) a better cartridge for the Mech-Tech. 





Mine had to go back to the Mother Ship after the charging handle snapped off, it was apparently just a soft piece of steel, and they replaced it without any other issues.   Maybe my loads were a little warm?  Perhaps.  I had a guy making me custom 140-grain JHP's, which I managed to get up to an average of 2364 fps with a healthy dose of Power Pistol.   Most of my loads involved 230-grain JHP's, and most of them averaged between 1500-1600 fps and showed good accuracy, sometime REALLY good accuracy. 

10-7 LEO, (Love the moniker!) Thanks for the info about the TNW, hopefully those with later versions will chime in here and relate their experiences with their 10mm's.  I was a bit worried about how sturdy the gun is, your comments alleviated my concerns about them being made too thin and light.

Anyone else got a favorite 10mm Carbine?  I've been hooked on the concept since I got my first PCC in the late 80's, a Marlin 357 carbine that I still have.  It may be slow to reload, but it sure is fast to empty!  It's the second from the top.  And yes, I have others with levers.

[Keiichi]

Always great to see how others conceived of their MechTech builds. Very cool.

Really neat lever collection there too.

Best of luck in your 10mm PCC search. I'm looking forward to hearing what you end up with.

[Ramjet]

I have three 10mm Carbines

1.) KRISS vector great 10mm the concept works, you can run this as fast as you can and stay on target. It is reliable and accurate. it's heavy but a good three-point sling takes care of that. I run an Ultradot on this and have shot steel targets out to 150 yards offhand with it. It's expensive. It's heavy and it's purpose built for a defensive gun.

2.) Contender G2 with a MGM 18" 10MM Barrel. Tac driver of a little rifle one hole groups at 50 yards. Light weight easy to carry and fast into action in dense brush. Shoots cast bullets like it was made for them. This little rifle also has an Ultra dot on it and is one of my favorite guns of all that I own. Light weight and handi.

3.) Hi-Point you get what you pay for. Sights suck, so I put a Ultra Dot on it. The darn thing beats the heck outta your cheek so I removed the rubber whisker puller on the stock that helped. It's reliable as all get out. Not very accurate at anything over 30-40 yards. My Mossberg Shockwave is more accurate. Now all that said you get what you pay for and I do have fun running the goofy thing. And it's good place to burn up misc. ammo that collects on my bench. 

So for me the best one of those I have tried is the G2 then if I add in the versitility of that platform it wins hands down. The only category it falls short is as defensive weapon then again make the first shot follow up may not be needed.......

[Azrckcrawler]

I learned a lot from my $1600 dollar 10mm PCC mistake.  It is documented in the RD10 post a few below this one. Essentially 10mm blowback rifles will be near impossible to get to run with all projectile loads due to needing a 2.5lb buffer/bolt combo for 155gr loads up to a 3.6lb bolt buffer combo for 220gr loads. My post has a spreadsheet with the documentation for this.  There just isn't enough room in the buffer tube of a typical Glock Lower AR style PCC to install enough weight to safely delay the bolt till the chamber pressure levels drop.

The TNW rifle/pistol gets close with a bolt and buffer @ 2.8lbs (if I remember correctly) and feeds fairly well with their latest feed ramp. I never checked for case stretch when I had my TNW but I bet it is there with 200+gr loads. While this gun looks like it has an AR style upper in reality it is a custom piece which allows for a much larger bolt than the more common Glock lower based PCC's.

Any Glock lower style PCC is going to need a rifle length buffer tube (if you want to run heavy weight projectiles) and the heaviest buffer you can get your hands on. The downside is heavier buffers can affect the feeding of lighter loads.  Regardless, if you limit your ammo to 155-165gr 10mm loads then 2.5lbs bolt/buffer weight is entirely possible with the buffers out there now.

I'd look at some sort of roller delay or gas driven 10mm PCC, skip the blowback versions if you want to run the full range of loads that the 10mm cartridge allows for.

[Graybeard]

I'd agree with Azrckcrawler re straight blowback vs delayed blowback or gas operated. Another member here, Pablo, and I both have RWMxtreme 10mm carbines. They are DI and use grease gun mags. The only real problem with them is the converted grease gun mags. I've gotten a little further than Pablo with solving that problem. If I did it again I would have ordered mine with a Glock mag lower. That seems to be the best solution to the feeding issue. The price for the grease gun mag version is $799 and I believe the Glock mag version is just a little more.

On the plus side, mine is stunningly accurate, came with a pretty decent trigger and nice furniture. It will run anything as long as it's not 10mms loaded to .40ish levels. Regardless of how hot I load my ammo, it drops the empties in a neat pile about 2-3' to my right.

[Papajohn]

This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for!

I've long said that Direct Impingement is the only way to go, but wasn't even sure if there were DI 10mm carbines out there, and I had never heard of the RMWXtreme guns.  I can't justify paying upwards of $1000 for a blowback gun, it just seems silly when we all know the issues that come with them.  As much as I like my Mech-Tech .460, it WILL stretch the brass, even with that massive bolt.





At this point my focus is on the RMW guns, a 10mm that takes Glock mags would be about as good as it gets.  Many thanks to all who responded!   

[Graybeard]

You also might want to look up Macon Armory and give them a call. The owners name is Rudy and he will make you up a DI 10mm carbine, as well. He may be just a little more expensive, but I've never heard a bad thing about his work. Others might chime in.

[Mike D]

What's your pulse on AR style carbines?

This one fits your requirements of gas operated and takes Glock mags.



Of course this one is SBR but could
be built as a carbine instead.


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[Papajohn]

"What's your pulse on AR style carbines?"

I've owned about a dozen AR's in various calibers and configurations, and I'm very comfortable with the platform.  An AR chassis built to take Glock mags would suit me fine!

What can you tell me about what you have there?  The Vltor name is vaguely familiar but I don't know anything about them.

I'm discovering that there are a LOT more PCC makers out there than I thought!   

[Mike D]

"What's your pulse on AR style carbines?"

I've owned about a dozen AR's in various calibers and configurations, and I'm very comfortable with the platform.  An AR chassis built to take Glock mags would suit me fine!

What can you tell me about what you have there?  The Vltor name is vaguely familiar but I don't know anything about them.

I'm discovering that there are a LOT more PCC makers out there than I thought!   

This one is a custom build. Lower is a QC10 Glock large frame lower. Only thing proprietary is the mag release and it comes already installed.

Upper was built/put together by Ron at RMW Extreme. He uses DI gas to build his uppers. I provided the VLTOR upper and the Noveske handguard. He machined the barrel and gas system as well as assembled it all. He provided the bolt as well. All other parts are run of the mill AR parts.

I will say that I had to play with different weight buffers since I shoot it suppressed. It currently runs a 9oz heavy buffer in it but doesn't run reliably unsuppressed. I suspect it would run great with a lighter buffer and regular gas system. My gas tube is only about 3" long.


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[sad_story]

I have three 10mm Carbines ....

2.) Contender G2 with a MGM 18" 10MM Barrel. Tac driver of a little rifle one hole groups at 50 yards. Light weight easy to carry and fast into action in dense brush. Shoots cast bullets like it was made for them. This little rifle also has an Ultra dot on it and is one of my favorite guns of all that I own. Light weight and handi.

So for me the best one of those I have tried is the G2 then if I add in the versitility of that platform it wins hands down. The only category it falls short is as defensive weapon then again make the first shot follow up may not be needed.......

Looking at the G2 Option..

[Papajohn]

I thought this whole process was going to take a year, between deciding what to buy/build, which accessories, and all that.   Wrong again!   I happened onto an auction a couple weeks ago, there were three hours left and I decided to go for it.  It's an RMW build, a DI-10mm with an 8" barrel, and it's super sweet.  Geisele trigger, slicked up action, this thing ROCKS.  Every day a truck pulls up and brings me more goodies for it, 500 Starline brass, more mags, lots of small additions, including a Bushnell Trophy TRS-25 red dot, Troy BUIS, better pistolgrip, yada yada yada.  I can't put it down, it's just begging to be shot!









Range report to follow, if the temp ever gets out of single digits when I'm actually off work!