Alliant BE-86 Pressure Rises in Colder Weather

[REDLINE]

Don't know if this might already be common knowledge but I've been toying with Alliant BE-86 this past year and the identical loads I worked up this past summer (+70°F weather) have risen in pressure in the now colder temperatures (20°F - 30°F weather).

These are extreme nuclear power level loads using the same batches of: powder, primers, and brass.  All fired in my Glock 20 with a Lone Wolf Alpha Wolf barrel (4.6").  And all based on meticulously individually hand-weighing powder charges on the same beam scale, not to mention I verify the charge weights on 2 different scales in case one would be off.

This is based on 2 different bullet loads, 155 Gold Dot and 180 XTP.  When I chronographed them in the summertime the 155 Gold Dots were averaging 1640fps/925ft-lbs and the 180 XTPs were averaging 1430fps/815ft-lbs. 

Sure, primers were well flattened out.....but I had loaded beyond the afformentioned loads I finally settled on with no catastrophic failures during the summer months (okay, there was a catastrophic failure but a new Glock 20 solved that and I was back to working up loads in no time  ).  But now I took some out to shoot in the recent colder temperatures and the primers fell out of every single round fired in both loads.  I thought there was maybe some weird fluke going on, but I loaded up more a week later and the primers fell out of all those too.

Anyway, wish I knew how much the PSI is actually going up.  Has anyone else noticed this with Alliant BE-86?  The only other powder I'm aware of that goes up in pressure the colder it is is Alliant Blue Dot, not that I ever tested it, just that I've seen it claimed on the internet.

[RDub01]

Heya
I have experienced significant differences in powders in how they perform in hot vs. cold weather. Each powder has its own personality in this regard, but they all have some.  I'm not at all surprised about this one (BE-86) getting weird on you.  When I was playin with it in my G20-SF a while ago, I noticed some strange pressure spikes. And that was in cooler temps as I recall. BE-86 wasn't going to be particularly accurate enough in my gun to continue, so I abandoned it.
The only thing I can suggest is starting over and work up from scratch, in cold weather, and meticulously measuring case head expansion and see how this compares to the hot weather results. Might be some valuable information to share. It is possible.. that this powder might be better suited for the tamer rounds like 9mm .45 acp etc., and is too erratic for a hot rod like the 10mm.  It's still fairly new so it is not completely vetted yet.

[The_Shadow]

REDLINE how you been doing besides popping out primers?  That seems a bit weird that they would be any worse in colder temps with BE-86 but not out of the realm either.
I really would like to study those loads you ran to see what and how they show.
155 Gold Dots @ 1640fps/925ft-lbs and the 180 XTPs @ 1430fps/815ft-lbs would be up there no mater what temps, not sure what the load weights you were running to get there but I haven't pushed any that hard either.
The reason I got the BE-86 was performance for the amount of powder used.  It was more of a balance of almost upper velocity while using slightly less powder.  I wasn't looking to push to the upper extremes because the burn rate is slightly faster than Power Pistol but it BE-86 also has flash suppressants.

The Sig 10mm 180's that I tested and loaded with 8.8 grains tested as follows
Sig 10mm 180 FMJ Test 4/2/2015
Glock 29   velocity  1178 fps case expansion 0.4315"
Glock 20   velocity  1250 fps case expansion 0.4315"
Glock 20   velocity  1260 fps case expansion 0.4315"
S&W1006 velocity  1276 fps  case expansion 0.4265"
S&W1006 velocity  1286 fps  case expansion 0.4270"

Nov. 27th 2015 Wade test Glock 20 factory barrel Wolff 22lb
180 Gr Rainer HEX COAL 1.2540"
8.5 grains BE-86 CCI 350
Velocity 1220 fps – 1180 fps

7.8 grains under the 200 cast bullet were making  1200 fps but need to test and measure them.

[REDLINE]

RDub01,

Interesting experience about BE-86 and strange pressure spikes.  In my case I'm not considering a variance in pressure being strange between different ambient temperatures, even though it is FAR more common for higher pressures to show up during warmer weather.  I've now tested a couple thousand rounds loaded with BE-86 using various bullets in many weights and never encountered any strange pressure spikes.  About accuracy, I suppose that's going to depend on "sweet spots" of a certain charge amount among other variables, but I can attest to exceptional accuracy with SOME loads I've tested from my Glock 20.  I had one nuclear load with 165 Gold Dots and 11.? grains of BE-86 at about 7 yards from a rest shooting 10 shot groups into a small cloverleaf pattern where about half a dozen rounds seemed to go through the same hole and the rest not far off.  Those were averaging +1500fps from the 4.6" Lone Wolf barrel.  By the same token I had some that wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from up close and personal, like some hot loaded 200gr Hard Cast bullets I was trying out.  But with those, after dropping the powder charge substantially, the groups became quite respectable.

All in all though I have never come across any evidence in my own testing to suggest anything erratic with BE-86.  Quite the opposite actually which is why I settled on it over other powders I was trying out.  And it is not that I had never shot BE-86 in cold weather, just not with nuclear loads.  I suspect the pressure goes up at any charge weight with BE-86, just that I didn't have tell tale signs of it in the past when I was not chronographing everything to see it or measuring case head expansion differences.  I don't even suspect now that the nuclear loads I had the primers falling out of were pressure spiking to a "crazy" degree, just that it was enough to push them over the top when already being right on the edge.  I've had the primers pop out in warm weather, hence dropping powder charges to the ones that then took COLD temperatures to get the primers to pop loose again.

Overall I really like BE-86!!!  No matter what the reasonable pressure level, it burns clean.  Velocities still continue to rise expectedly and evenly to the highest pressure levels I've tested at.  I can attest to it being low flash from all the times staying out testing into dark (compared to other powders I've also tested in the same conditions).  It's a nice ballance in 10mm Auto of a reasonable charge weight for an excellent velocity even without going nuclear.  And while charge weights aren't as accurate in a progressive press setup like a powder like AA No.7 that flows like water, it still works very well overall.

Speaking of powders that show clear signs of pressure spikes, two in my experience that I can attest to are Winchester 572 and Hodgdon LongShot!  With those two powders in 10mm with a stock glock barrel you can shoot 9 out of 10 rounds with no signs of unwanted pressure at all.  But that 1 or so out of 10 or so rounds, and BAM there's a smile you can't believe didn't end up in a case rupture!  I leaned toward it being a fluke with both of them till retesting a couple times for each verified the original finding!

The jury is still out as to wether I will stick with BE-86 as my go to 10mm powder.  It is possible I still will and just adjust the powder charges accordingly for winter temps, pending looking into at least a couple other powders before making a final decision.

Others I've ruled out so far in favor of BE-86 are:
N350, CFE & Silhouette - super consistent but won't reach the velocities I want.
AA No.9 & Enforcer - decent velocity but at the expense of lots of powder per charge.
Power Pistol & 800X - excellent top level velocities with 800X and so-so with PP, but very flashy and not near as consistent as BE-86 at nuclear levels.
Blue Dot - excellent top level velocities with accuracy but too flashy and requires a fairly heavy charge weight.
Pro Reach - I know, I know, NOT designed for handgun rounds!, but I tried it out and can attest to why;  ERRATIC!  Velocities and accuracy all over the place at various charge weights no matter what the bullet weight! Definitely stay away from that stuff outside of shotshell loads!

Again, I really like BE-86 overall!  Mainly just wanted to point out in the most basic sense that it IS reverse temperature sensative.  And while there are other powders I still want to try out, for the moment, BE-86 is my favorite powder in all things 10mm.

[REDLINE]

Shadow;

Doing well!  Hope the same for you!  I've had a few case failures too, but only one that wrecked the frame.  So far though all my extremities are still in tact.

First let me say I originally didn't mention the specific loads on purpose even though I'm not necessarily opposed to doing so.  But to anyone else reading this, if you decide to attempt approaching the loads I'm about to mention, DON'T unless you're set up from the start to handle worst possible scenarios like destroyed test platforms and injury or death to yourself and anyone else who may be around you at the time!  I'm just saying!

My test platform for both loads is a bone stock G20 except for using a Lone Wolf Alpha Wolf 4.6" barrel that has the optional PVD coating.  Both loads;  COL = 1.250", Fed 150 or CCI 300 (in my testing I've found both to be interchangeable with no noticeable difference in load performance), Brand New Starline Nickel Plated Brass, and crimp to .422" - .423".

155 Gold Dot with 12.8 grains BE-86.
My results on a 70°F day from a 20 shot group =
1623 - 1669 fps with an average of 1645fps/931 ft-lbs.

180 XTP with 10.7 grains BE-86.
My results on the same 70°F day as above from a 20 shot group =
1424 - 1460 fps with an average of 1443fps/832 ft-lbs.



You mentioned some 180gr loads that my testing agrees with perfectly;

180XTP, Fed 150 Primer, 1.250" COL, .422"-.423" crimp, Brand New Starline Nickel Plated Brass, 8.6 grains BE-86;

Don't know the temperature that day but it was summertime in general;

20 shots from a bone stock G20 including the barrel;

1214 - 1244 fps with an average of 1231fps/606ft-lbs.

Special Note - one piece of recovered brass had a barely noticeable smile.

I agree with your assersions of BE-86.....performance/charge amount.....and still like it very much!  Just need to adjust nuclear loads for colder temperatures.

[The_Shadow]

Yes I doing good over here and thanks for the data Redline.  Others reading this, should read all of the post to gather an understanding of 5 "W's"  Who, What, Where, When, Why.

I have no thoughts why the colder temps would up the pressures but the loads are likely to the point of pushing the brass limits as loaded.  Starline seems to expand at the primer pocket as I too have seen some primers fall out as the pockets expanded duplicating UW and SF loadings in the past.  Starline brass seems softer (more mailable) and is made as a Handloader's brass.
Other makes tend to be stiffer, like older Winchester brass, Hornady brass, they tend to crack lengthwise.

All in all, I don't think I'd be running all the way up to the levels you are showing.  As it was that Buffalo Bore 155 TAC-XP load with Power Pistol was scary enough...and it works.

[REDLINE]

I had considered trying other brands of brass like Jagemann or X-treme but am in limbo as to whether I care enough to move forward doing so or not.

No doubt I've pushed the limits.  I worked those nuclear loads up in a stock G20 barrel first and then fired them from that time forward through the Lone Wolf Alpha Wolf barrel I have.  Basically I just went by smiles in the brass in the stock G20 barrel and then backed charge weights down till the smiles disappeared for all practical purposes (IN MY GUN) and called it good.   What would really be awesome is knowing the actual pressures achieved.

You mentioned the scary Buffalo Bore 155 TAC-XP load with Power Pistol.  I agree.  I have pushed Power Pistol and the results bothered me enough to never attempt using it again for hot loads let alone nuclear level ones.  If you don't mind some flash Power Pistol is basically fine for 10mm in medium to medium warm loads.  But if someone wants even the upper end of normal full power 10mm loads I recommend choosing a different powder.  When I was just in the beginning stages of pushing Power Pistol in a stock G20 barrel it was akin to LongShot and 572 in that 9 out of 10 shots showed no sign of a smile but then 1 or so would smile heavily.  Not to the degree of LongShot or 572, but too obvious for comfort all the same.  Never had that inconsistency with BE-86 among other powders. 

Power Pistol and BE-86 are apparently somehow related but in my experience BE-86 is much tamer and capable of noticeably higher velocities without the inconsistencies.  Plus Power Pistol doesn't meter as well as BE-86, though not bad, neither does it burn as clean at all pressure levels, though not bad in that respect either.  I feel like Power Pistol simply gets more love than some other powders because of the name alone.  Otherwise IMO there are a bunch of better powders to choose for 10mm at any power level.

On another note I'm tempted to load up another batch of the loads the primers fell out of in the cold with BE-86 and actually get some chronograph results with them to see how much if any velocity changed.  But so far just tempted.   Should I eventually choose to do so I'll post the results here.

[The_Shadow]

Both Power Pistol (BE-84) and BE-86 are derived from Bullseye powder hence the BE designator.  Flakes are slightly larger diameter and thicker from original Bullseye, densities and additives to slow the burn rates and characteristics and flash suppressant to an extent with BE-86. 

All the best with your further testing and stay safe!

[RDub01]

Hey Redline
Your experience overall is fascinating..  What primers were you using?  I didn't try BE86 with lighter bullets.. I was sticking with 180's 'til I found what I liked.  I should explore with 155gr later..
Interesting about 572. I just finished loading up a short ladder with 180gr FMJ's with 572 and WLP primers.  Worked up to 8.0grs last time and the cases said there was a little room to grow.  Also going to look at Sport Pistol, IMR Target, and Red Dot.. Not for nuclear loads, just seeing what the parameters are.

I believe the ideal powder/load for 180gr bullets is 10.0grs of something at 1300 fps.  Whatever BuffaloBore is using in their 180g JHP load is about perfect.  Last time I examined that load it was 10.0grs of something at just under 1300 fps in my stock G20-SF.  I've seen both Remington and Starline cases used in that load.  I have never seen a smiley shooting that load in my G20-SF with stock barrel.  Some believe that factory powder is Power Pistol.  Well, 10.0grs of PP behind a 180gr JHP would cause more than smileys..800-X comes as close to that as anything.

Thanks for the heads-up about 572.  I'll keep a close eye on it tomorrow.

[The_Shadow]

Here is that Buffalo Bore back in 2013

Buffalo Bore 180gr  Sierra JHP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1350 fps
Muzzle Energy: 728 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Remington - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6355"/Dia. 0.4000":  180gr. Sierra JHP
Actual weigh 180.0 grains  Crimp Diameter 0.3995" 
HP Dia 0.1710"  HP Depth 0.1855" Mouth 0.2610"
C.O.A.L.: 1.2465"
Primer: Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.4220" Crimp Diameter 0.4215" Length 0.9880"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: Power Pistol 10.0 grains
Tested in 10mm S&W1006 5" 1349 fps June 8, 2013
Case expanded to 0.4275", primer slightly flattened, case shows some stress.

[REDLINE]

RDub01,

The data is detailed above, but the primers are Federal 150.  But I've tested CCI 300 primers side by side with the Federals and at least my chronograph says they're doing the same thing (10 shot groups using 2 different loads when I specifically tested side by side on the same day).  So either of those 2 primers should equal my results.


Some repetition;  the 572 powder is fine for anything less than a full power load and probably at the low end of acceptable for standard full power loads without going nuclear.  Just testing a few rounds at a time may not show anything out of the ordinary, as I mentioned earlier that I most commonly see it about 1 out of 10 shots.  That said, it could take 15 or 20 shots before you get one that seriously jumps in pressure.  Just don't want you to be surprised if you test 5 and see no signs of any jumping in pressure over the others.  Same for LongShot.  IME Power pistol had this same issue but it is more subtle than 572 or LongShot.

[Benchrst]

155s @ 1,640, guess I need to up my game

G20.4 w/ LW 5.15" I was seeing brass shear at 1,450.

[REDLINE]

155s @ 1,640, guess I need to up my game

G20.4 w/ LW 5.15" I was seeing brass shear at 1,450.

I haven't seen that with any of the brand new starline brass (standard and nickel plated) I've been using.  That's with well over 100 rounds fired at that velocity. Besides that I fired plenty more over that velocity that showed no signs of brass shear before backing down to the 1640fps.  That's in both a stock Glock barrel which they are not truly safe in and in a Lone Wolf barrel that doesn't seem to take issue with them.

Are you using used brass cases?