Something not right with this bullets performance.

[TODDXUSMC]

Opening day a large bodied buck (approx 195 lbs as dressed it was 160), came about 75 yds below the stand and winded me. We were eye to eye and he presented a 30o quartering(toward me shot). The load was a 143 ELDX (interlock) chronograph and trajectory confirmed @2920fps from my 6.5 Creedmoor. I decided to take the shot, he went down like a rock. I got up, safely unloaded the gun, unbuckled and climbed down to the ground, got my 10mm out (just in case). I heard some movement then it got quiet again. I started walked over to where I thought he was and he got up and ran? WTF?  Hair everywhere, blood, corn, then as I tracked I jumped him 100yds away, he ran like hell, again WTF? Followed constant blood for 3mi until I finally found him dead under a tree. No blood left inside, massive entry wound where it was supposed to be, trajectory was slightly varied to the right of where it should have went based on the shot angle, no bones hit (went between scapula and ribs into the body cavity) It still managed to take out a lung, tore through the esophagus and the bullet was somewhere inside the stomach(no I wasn't going to sift through the remaining stomach content for the bullet but maybe I should have). Im very perplexed as this is supposed to be a bullet with a sd and toughness capable of elk. Debating whether it was the bullets fault or if I chose the wrong bullet. The deer absorbed over 2400 lbs of energy and didn't die right away.
Appreciate any input as it is very disturbing when I don't have them die within 5-10yds if that. (Only one other out of 28 Ive shot ever went more than 10yds  it too was recovered dead).



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[The_Shadow]

Wow Todd, damn deer are amazing animals.   If you don't compromise their nervous system it can take 4 to 6 minutes for them to sub come from blood loss despite broken bones and other!
At lease you recovered the deer and were not hurt in the recovery.  Congrats!

[Trapper6L]

Congrats, you just learned a lesson I learned about 58 years ago. I was in a blind on high stilts packing a 3006 loaded with the then "killer" Remington 180gr Bronze Point bullet. Same thing happened to me with the same type quartering shot. The entry hole looked just like yours. My deer didn't go far but I didn't get out of the blind for 30 minutes. If you're familiar with the Texas Hill Country, Bandera to be exact, is where our ranch was at. I later had it explained to me that the bullet went off (basically came apart) on the hair, hence the large entry wound. You're pushing that bullet almost 200'ps faster than Hodgdon factory ammo for the 6.5. Add the fact the bullet never got to stabilize due to the short range and you get poor performance. Your only options as I see it is to use a solid bullet or slow the bullet down.

Just a FWIW so you might understand about bullet performance. If you think the bullet core in ALL rifles is ALWAYS a solid, you'd be wrong. I have several wildcats that will still have the bullet core a liquid at 100 yds. I can show you wisps of smoke at the top of the bullet hole left on the paper. There was no bullet to find as it went to a spray. You're welcome to contact the good folks at Sierra if you don't believe it. But the 30/338mag, one of the Remington ADLs in 270, the 6.5x06, and the 6x284 all have this problem. Due to the extreme pressure and heat, the bullet goes molten. As a side note, you claim 2920'ps. Max out with any of the data at Hodgdon who loads to over 61,000 psi, it would appears that you have crossed this threshold by a lot. The lead core goes liquid at around 57-58000psi when the bullet has enough time to collect the pressure. Sometimes it cools quickly and by 100 yds of travel has gone back to a solid, sometimes, it takes more time/yardage.

[TODDXUSMC]

Congrats, you just learned a lesson I learned about 58 years ago. I was in a blind on high stilts packing a 3006 loaded with the then "killer" Remington 180gr Bronze Point bullet. Same thing happened to me with the same type quartering shot. The entry hole looked just like yours. My deer didn't go far but I didn't get out of the blind for 30 minutes. If you're familiar with the Texas Hill Country, Bandera to be exact, is where our ranch was at. I later had it explained to me that the bullet went off (basically came apart) on the hair, hence the large entry wound. You're pushing that bullet almost 200'ps faster than Hodgdon factory ammo for the 6.5. Add the fact the bullet never got to stabilize due to the short range and you get poor performance. Your only options as I see it is to use a solid bullet or slow the bullet down.

Just a FWIW so you might understand about bullet performance. If you think the bullet core in ALL rifles is ALWAYS a solid, you'd be wrong. I have several wildcats that will still have the bullet core a liquid at 100 yds. I can show you wisps of smoke at the top of the bullet hole left on the paper. There was no bullet to find as it went to a spray. You're welcome to contact the good folks at Sierra if you don't believe it. But the 30/338mag, one of the Remington ADLs in 270, the 6.5x06, and the 6x284 all have this problem. Due to the extreme pressure and heat, the bullet goes molten. As a side note, you claim 2920'ps. Max out with any of the data at Hodgdon who loads to over 61,000 psi, it would appears that you have crossed this threshold by a lot. The lead core goes liquid at around 57-58000psi when the bullet has enough time to collect the pressure. Sometimes it cools quickly and by 100 yds of travel has gone back to a solid, sometimes, it takes more time/yardage.

Thank you Trapper for a great analysis. On the load, I am not using any of Hodgdons products with this bullet. Before I loaded the first round for this rifle I hit every forum (and many load threads on 6.5 Creedmoor) I could to see what everyone was using. Because H4350 was unavailable for quite a long time, many of the forums contributors started using alternatives and started getting great results with slower burning powders. A trend towards very slow for caliber powders developed until many started using RE26 with great results. The common HV long range load they were using was 48-49 grains of RE26 where most were getting over 2900 fps(I don't know if they all were using a chrono or some just guessing). My load (after safety working up) is 48.5 gr of RE26, Starline LP brass, CCI #250 primers and the 143ELDX out of a Sako A7 with a 26" 1/8 bbl, this load still showed no signs of high pressure. While my groups are only slightly larger than the 4350 class powder they hover around .75 MOA. I choose the load/bullet combination because as well as closer shots(25-100yds) we have some long fields where shots could exceed 400 yds(one is a 160 acre plot of corn). I figured the high sd of the semi VLD bullet along with the interlock core would work in this scenario. While I definitely agree that the bullet hadn't stabilized, Ive never had a bullet open up like this one did. I definitely believe you on the hair theory because there was alot of it at the impact site; hell looked like I hit a deerhair pillow. Even as far back as the mid 70's when I was using 125gr cor lokts out of a .280 I never had one do this; where one shot was literally about 10yds on a quartering doe that didn't see me sitting on a pail LOL. I have taken many deer with the Nosler Accubond and may look into the ABLR next time (if they are available).


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[Rojo27]

Hey TODDXUSMC,
I've not used the new Hornady XLD-X (extremely low drag expanding) bullet however, based upon what I read it's a long distance oriented projectile.  Hornady touts its ability to retain enough energy to expand properly at 400 plus yard shots on their website. 
Based on your picture and description, I fully concur with Trapper...  That bullet exploded on impact and didn't penetrate deep enough.  That's a hell of an entrance wound.  Bet there was a crazy amount of messed up meat in the impacted area. 

I commend you on tracking the wounded animal 3 miles.   Not very many people will put that much effort into recovering a wounded but slowly dying animal.  Your deer's reaction to being shot is similar to one that occurred to me years ago (I never forgot it or got over it) as a young hunter.   About 10 minutes after sun set, a fantastic 12 point come in to about 135 yards, quartering towards.  I was using a 270 on that hunt (a fantastic deer caliber) and bang, flop occurred immediately after the shot on that occasion as well.  I was in a 12 foot elevated blind.   After the drop the buck didn't move.  So cleared the rifle, slung it and started down the latter.  Half way down the ladder, the buck stood up and started to run off.  Got down as fast as I could, chambered another round but couldn't get another bead on the buck before he was out of sight.  Within 60 yards he'd made it to huge open pasture with 5' grass.  The blood trail would start & stop and my hunting buddies and I hunted for that buck for over 3.5 hours in the dark.  It was cold that night and the next morning in day light we continued our search and found him about noon.  Unfortunately, the coyotes had found him before I did.  Now when an animal drops immediately after the shot.  I stay put and on target just in case.  In hundreds hunts since then, not had one lay down for awhile and then get back up and run off but never want to experience that feeling again.   

[TODDXUSMC]

Hey TODDXUSMC,
I've not used the new Hornady XLD-X (extremely low drag expanding) bullet however, based upon what I read it's a long distance oriented projectile.  Hornady touts its ability to retain enough energy to expand properly at 400 plus yard shots on their website. 
Based on your picture and description, I fully concur with Trapper...  That bullet exploded on impact and didn't penetrate deep enough.  That's a hell of an entrance wound.  Bet there was a crazy amount of messed up meat in the impacted area. 

I commend you on tracking the wounded animal 3 miles.   Not very many people will put that much effort into recovering a wounded but slowly dying animal.  Your deer's reaction to being shot is similar to one that occurred to me years ago (I never forgot it or got over it) as a young hunter.   About 10 minutes after sun set, a fantastic 12 point come in to about 135 yards, quartering towards.  I was using a 270 on that hunt (a fantastic deer caliber) and bang, flop occurred immediately after the shot on that occasion as well.  I was in a 12 foot elevated blind.   After the drop the buck didn't move.  So cleared the rifle, slung it and started down the latter.  Half way down the ladder, the buck stood up and started to run off.  Got down as fast as I could, chambered another round but couldn't get another bead on the buck before he was out of sight.  Within 60 yards he'd made it to huge open pasture with 5' grass.  The blood trail would start & stop and my hunting buddies and I hunted for that buck for over 3.5 hours in the dark.  It was cold that night and the next morning in day light we continued our search and found him about noon.  Unfortunately, the coyotes had found him before I did.  Now when an animal drops immediately after the shot.  I stay put and on target just in case.  In hundreds hunts since then, not had one lay down for awhile and then get back up and run off but never want to experience that feeling again.   

Ty Rojo. As to the damage to meat, it really wasn't bad. As you can see from the picture the shoulder separated as the round went in. I am thinking the trajectory changed to slightly upward and to the right as the bullet blew up. Im not one to take risky or bad shots. I put over 350 rounds from this rifle/load combo before season at ranges from 100-340yds to confirm trajectories and my skill level. I know I made a good shot and the trajectory,had the bullet not blown up should have (if everything would've went as planned); gone thru the upper lobe of left lung down through the lower right of the heart and exited out. Based on the shot and  constant blood throughout that long track I knew he couldn't go on forever, no way I was going to just give up. The great thing is we have good neighbors and we are good to our neighbors, we have a pre arranged agreement that if there's a good blood trail across the line we/they may follow(I went through 3 different properties plus our own on this recovery). I've always promoted fair chase and clean ethical kills, so it's even more disheartening that this happened. I guess it just goes to show that no matter how well you have planned and prepared things can go differently. Next year I will use the ABLR in the 142gr or possibly the 130gr Swift Scirocco (although the Swift may be to tough for extended ranges beyond 350yds and It will give up bc over the 142/43 gr class VLD s).


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[Rojo27]

Out of curiosity, where are you hunting? 

330 yards is the longest shot i've ever taken on a Whitetail.
I was using a 308 rifle & Hornady SST bullet on a W. Texas Buck.  He abliged by walking a short
distance along a small ridgeline, perpendicular to me.  He piled up after about 12 yards, i'd gotten both lungs and aorta, so it was over quick.  Hunted a lot in TN as well and those shots are seldom
over a hundred yards and usually inside 50yards (thick woods). 
Furthest shot I've ever taken to harvest an animal was a bull elk in Colorado several years ago at 405 yards using a 300WSM and a Barnes TSX bullet.  I was comfortbly prone and stable.  I'd been practicing out to 500 yards in preparation for that hunt.  On that occasion the 300WSM Barnes worked like a charm, however it passed through and wasn't recovered. 

[TODDXUSMC]

We are in Wisconsin, where the central farmland and northern forest meet. While there are alot of cedar/tamaracks in the lower areas of our county there are many large agricultural fields of corn and soybeans. Our land was (dad sold the 80 last week but we still got to hunt it) a mix of lowlands and hard woods 2 40s deep with a river cutting through from one corner to the other, we are in the middle an approximately 5 sq mile block of contiguous land with a few farms around the perimeter. To the east across the road its low and thick and wet, to the south there is a smaller corn field 225 yds wide by 450yds long, on the north it slopes up with 80acre plot of corn. Behind us west is 3-40 acre plots of semi logged hardwoods. Behind that southern cornfield is a 60 acre hardwoods beyond which is that bohemeth 160 acre stand of corn so yes the potential for long range shooting is definitely there, and at times likely(a reason we don't use shotguns but magnums and proven distance cartridges). We may hunt all but the 3/40s to the west which are leased by qdm hunters. We let the neighbors hunt black bear-and rabbit on ours and in return we can hunt over as well as track in theirs(as long as we don't put a stand near theirs or drive their land, the aren't allowed to drive ours either). So very sad it's over and dad sold it.


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[50BMG]

Interesting...
Years ago, I once had a 7mm Rem.Mag. 175g JSP round bounce off the upper chest of a deer at slightly closer range than yours (Rem. factory load, before I was into hand loading)...

Same as you, he came straight at me out of a sapling growth which was only @ 25-30 yards away from where I was sitting in my ground blind. The wind was working in my favor and I had the scope on him before he entered open field, but as he got closer I knew it wouldn't be long before the gig was up.
I was worried about that much rifle going full-length front to rear and taking out everything in between, especially if I went for the heart or other vital straight-on. He kept coming straight at me for @ 5 more yards and then he made a very slight, maybe only 10-15 degree turn to his right.
So, I aimed higher on his chest, just off-center to his left hoping to maybe get the right lung-top, maybe even his spine?. I let it go. There was a loud "gasp" type noise, and he jumped back into the saplings from where he came but he sure didn't go far.
When I got to him, his chest was ripped wide open, about 8" X 2", L. to R. just off center, starting at my POA. Even more bewildering, there was no exit wound on the R. side body of the deer as kind of I expected to see.
So, I always assumed that the projo just chose the path of lease resistance and glanced off his chest (transferring much energy and busting up his ribs/sternum of course). Since he was so close, I figured it was also possible the projo hadn't even stabilized in flight yet, thus the left turn it appeared to make was more explainable.
That was the least bloody deer I have ever gutted to this day. I could have held a deer anatomy class with his innards because besides his esophagus/windpipe/rib cage, nothing else was affected...

Wonder if your projo just chose the path of least resistance too? High energy rounds will do that in amazing ways some times...
Just a thought