Underwood 135 gr

[P33v3]

I just got my Underwood 135gr HPs. All I can say is wow this stuff is strong. I know I saw one test into gel online that said it only had like 10 inches or so of penetration but at 800 ft lbs the shockwave alone has to be seriously damaging. I'm liking it and can't wait for the 180gr GDs to be available again. This round seems like a great carry round and doesn't seem like it will have problems with over penetration. Good Job to the Underwood folks.

[Raggedyman]

"Shockwave" (often referred to as "hydrostatic shock") is not a wounding mechanism. There are essentially four factors in projectile wounding: penetration, temporary cavity, permanent cavity, and fragmentation. The relative effectiveness of a handgun cartridge is measured by comparing the width of the crush cavity (which is determined by the frontal area of the bullet) to the depth of penetration. Crush cavity refers to the tissue that is physically removed by the passage of the bullet. The temporary cavity is tissue that was pushed to the side as the bullet passed but returned to its place and it is not considered a significant factor in handgun wounding. The reason is that handgun bullets don't generate the velocity needed to push tissues beyond their elastic limit. They simply stretch and snap back into position like a rubber band. Human tissue is remarkably resilient. The exceptions to that are liver and brain tissue, which are not particularly elastic. For a much better understanding of projectile wounding mechanics and to disabuse yourself of some of the notions you might have gotten from Bubba at the gun counter, start here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

I presume you're talking about tnoutdoors9's YouTube test. He got 10.5" of penetration in his Cleargel media. I've got some issues with using Cleargel. It looks like it gives results that are somewhat similar to calibrated gelatin but I've seen a few tests where it varied a bit from a published gelatin test. On the other hand, my own tests are performed with gelatin but it's not actual 250A bloom photographer's gelatin so I can't claim that my tests are necessarily more accurate. Nevertheless, my results were a bit different than he got. My test showed 7.9" of penetration with significant fragmentation and much less retained weight than in his test.

In any case, the bullet failed to reach the FBI recommended 12" in both tests. While 8"-10" might be adequate for a situation where your attacker obliges you by presenting a full frontal, stationary shot by doing his best impression of an E-type target, it is often inadequate if the bad guy is actually trying to hurt you because that often puts limbs in the way, necessitating deeper penetration. From what I've seen in 10mm so far, 165 gr is my favorite weight for defense. I've seen good results from a wide range of bullet designs at that weight.

tnoutdoors9's test:

my test:

[The_Shadow]

This may be of intrest to some you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tku8YI68-JA

[P33v3]

I've been carrying Atomic as I like heavier bullets anyway. Have you done any gel tests with that? I would like to try Underwoods 180 GD load.

[REDLINE]

I would like to try Underwoods 180 GD load.

I'ld say they should be a very good carry load.  I really liked the results of Raggedyman's gel test with the Underwood 10mm 155gr Gold Dot load.

[sqlbullet]

Good video Shadow.  Everyone should watch it.

The too long, didn't watch is this.  To incapacitate you need to cause big bleeding an primary tissue disruption.  Unless the projectile is moving at least 2,200-2,300 fps, the secondary wounding doesn't matter.

This means a bullet that can both expand and penetrate.

[Raggedyman]

Well said sqlbullet.

I haven't tested an Atomic, yet but I think Intercooler sent me some in the last batch.

[REDLINE]

Good video Shadow.  Everyone should watch it.

The too long, didn't watch is this.  To incapacitate you need to cause big bleeding an primary tissue disruption.  Unless the projectile is moving at least 2,200-2,300 fps, the secondary wounding doesn't matter.

This means a bullet that can both expand and penetrate.

What do you mean by secondary wounding?

[sqlbullet]

Hydrostatic shock or temporary wound channel.

If you watch the videos in slow motion, you will see a huge swelling of the wound cavity as the bullet passes through.  It is the tissue stretching from the shockwave of the bullet passing through.

In a high velocity round (above 2,300 fps or so) this stretching exceeds the elastic limits of human muscle and fatty tissue, meaning even though the tissue returns to original position after the shock wave, it is badly damaged and will continue to bleed severely.  This is the secondary wound cavity.  It was not caused by direct contact with the projectile, but by the shock of it's passing through nearby tissue.

While you do see some stretching in "handgun" cartridges like the 10mm, it is not enough to cause the kind of tissue disruption needed.  It will not contribute significantly to blood loss or loss of motor control.  It will manifest in an ache the next day like you were punched hard.

[REDLINE]

Thanks!  I agree except for the ~2300 fps part.  For example I've seen the difference in wounding between 38 Special +P hollow point loads and 147gr 9mm hollow point loads compared to hot factory 357 Magnum 125gr hollow point loads and hot 135gr and 155gr 10mm factory loads.  The difference, depending on shot placement, ranges from noticeable to big difference (IMO), and it didn't take anywhere near ~2300 fps to show those differences.

Even going a bit outside the box look at the difference between wound damage of 38 special hollow point loads ~950 fps and 44 Magnum 180-210gr hollow point loads ~1400 fps.  There's just no comparison, and that's without getting anywhere near even 2000 fps.

IMO, enhanced wounding throughout the wound track, along with quicker incapacitation (sometimes but now always), begin at ~1350 fps with hollow point bullets in any common self defense caliber/cartridge, beginning at .355 diameter projectiles and going up from there (in other words stuff like 22 caliber from handguns just doesn't cut it in my mind).

BTW, how/where did you come up with the 2200-2300 fps numbers?  I've just never heard reference to that range before.  I've seen 1500 fps, 1800 fps, and 2000 fps argued before, just never till now the 2200-2300 fps range.

[DM1906]

Thanks!  I agree except for the ~2300 fps part.  For example I've seen the difference in wounding between 38 Special +P hollow point loads and 147gr 9mm hollow point loads compared to hot factory 357 Magnum 125gr hollow point loads and hot 135gr and 155gr 10mm factory loads.  The difference, depending on shot placement, ranges from noticeable to big difference (IMO), and it didn't take anywhere near ~2300 fps to show those differences.

Even going a bit outside the box look at the difference between wound damage of 38 special hollow point loads ~950 fps and 44 Magnum 180-210gr hollow point loads ~1400 fps.  There's just no comparison, and that's without getting anywhere near even 2000 fps.

IMO, enhanced wounding throughout the wound track, along with quicker incapacitation (sometimes but now always), begin at ~1350 fps with hollow point bullets in any common self defense caliber/cartridge, beginning at .355 diameter projectiles and going up from there (in other words stuff like 22 caliber from handguns just doesn't cut it in my mind).

BTW, how/where did you come up with the 2200-2300 fps numbers?  I've just never heard reference to that range before.  I've seen 1500 fps, 1800 fps, and 2000 fps argued before, just never till now the 2200-2300 fps range.

The "secondary wound" as stated by SQL, is valid, as is the velocity.  Pistol projectile velocity range can't do it, and never will.  The hydrostatic tissue damage is completely separate from projectile physical damage.  Of course, larger and/or faster projectiles case more damage than smaller and/or slower projectiles, but more damage doesn't equate to hydrostatic tissue damage.  I think it's also interesting that this affect only appears as projectile velocities pass the transonic barrier, x2, and only at target impact velocity.  This may also explain the velocity range for this to occur, as the transonic velocity varies, depending on atmospheric conditions.

Pistol bullets rely on brute-force tissue damage.  They either push a large area of tissue through and through (or until all its energy is transfered to the tissue, such as the WFN bullets), or strategically increase their cross sectional area as encountering tissue (the hollow points) and push until the energy is expended.  Soft point bullets fall somewhere between the two.  This is also why we don't (and shouldn't) use "pointed" bullets in handguns and low-velocity rifles.  They don't work.

Hydrostatic tissue damage does not rely on energy transfered from the projectile in contact with tissue alone.  The affect is damage caused at a molecular level, meaning, molecular cell disruption is transferred from projectile, to tissue cell, to tissue cell, until the energy "wave" expends itself in a range consistent with kinetic energy the projectile imparts on the tissue as a whole.  Molecular cell disruption (rupture) is the result, and the affect decreases as the bullet velocity, within the tissue mass, decreases.  This is the affect explaining the extensive tissue damage observed by a 56 grain .223 FMJ bullet wound channel, although the relatively small caliber projectile passes through the tissue with the bullet profile essentially unchanged.  No "brute force", no expanding cross section, low projectile mass, and essentially low sectional density.  Something caused all that damage, even though the small caliber projectile passes through the tissue, not unlike a practice arrow.

I don't know why you aren't familiar with the 2200-2300 FPS range.  This is essentially irrelevant to almost all handgun and handgun velocity platforms.  While it can be a factor with specific .460 S&W cartridges, most other handguns just can't get there.  Unless you've made an effort to become familiar with high velocity rifle cartridge science (very few shooters/handloaders do), you'd have never had any reason to look into it, or acknowledge it, if you had heard of it.  Many/most folks just don't study or familiarize themselves with information not relative to their efforts.

[sqlbullet]

It isn't a "magic number" Redline.  Your post reads as if you are interpreting this very black and white.  At normal pistol velocities, 1200 fps and below, it is completely insignificant.  At rifle velocities and above (2200-2300 fps and up) it is definitely a huge factor.  In between, depending on a huge number of variable it can become a factor.

The relevant point for those of use carrying handgun calibers, up to and including, the 10mm auto, is that our projectiles won't still be moving 1600 fps when they get to the body parts we need to damage.  Parts of the body that are accessible enough at the core that we will see it don't usually house anything that will matter if we hit.  The parts were we need to cause the damage are too deep to reach with enough energy for secondary wounding to occur.

So, we need big, deeply penetrating projectiles.  A 155 grain is a great choice.  Same sectional density as the 357 Magnum 125 grain bullet, close to the same velocity, more energy.  It will expand big and drive deep.

A 44 magnum will certainly convey some shock damage.  Big bullet, moving fast, and doesn't slow down easily.  But keep in mind, a 44 Magnum 240 grain has 30% more sectional density than a 155 grain 10mm.  At it is moving just as fast, and putting down 1300 lb-ft of energy.  It is going to carry that velocity MUCH deeper into the target than the 10mm ever will.  With a 190 grain bullet, which is more on par section density wise to a 155 grain 10mm or a 125 grain 357, you are seeing 1850-1900 fps at the muzzle.

We can argue the nuance of secondary wound channels in human targets all day.  Watch the video.  The doctor who has been present for lots of them in humans is very clear that they don't matter at "handgun velocities".

[REDLINE]

Unless you've made an effort to become familiar with high velocity rifle cartridge science (very few shooters/handloaders do), you'd have never had any reason to look into it, or acknowledge it, if you had heard of it.  Many/most folks just don't study or familiarize themselves with information not relative to their efforts.

I'm well studied and aware. 

I'm happy agreeing to disagree. 

Still, regardless what's been covered overall and why, I have yet to come across the velocity range of 2200-2300 fps as specifically considered in what has been discussed already.  I'm not saying it isn't written somewhere.  I was just hoping to be pointed in a direction showing the teaching of that velocity range for the reason it's been discussed below.

[REDLINE]

It isn't a "magic number" Redline.

You just made it up? 

Your post reads as if you are interpreting this very black and white.  At normal pistol velocities, 1200 fps and below, it is completely insignificant.  At rifle velocities and above (2200-2300 fps and up) it is definitely a huge factor.  In between, depending on a huge number of variable it can become a factor.

That would suggest to me we are on the same page overall.  You don't agree?

The relevant point for those of use carrying handgun calibers, up to and including, the 10mm auto, is that our projectiles won't still be moving 1600 fps when they get to the body parts we need to damage.  Parts of the body that are accessible enough at the core that we will see it don't usually house anything that will matter if we hit.  The parts were we need to cause the damage are too deep to reach with enough energy for secondary wounding to occur.

How much energy are you suggesting the projectile needs to still be carrying through the vitals for enough secondary wounding to occure?

With a 190 grain bullet (44 Magnum), which is more on par section density wise to a 155 grain 10mm or a 125 grain 357, you are seeing 1850-1900 fps at the muzzle.

In a longer barrel, yes.  I was thinking more of a 4-5.5 inch barreled revolver.

Watch the video.

I did.  Every second.

The doctor who has been present for lots of them in humans is very clear that they don't matter at "handgun velocities".

In reference to 9mm and 45 Auto fodder, yes.  In reference to 357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, or 44 Magnum, no.  Did you watch the whole video?  Did you see where he got the info from outside of actual wound treatment related methods, considerations, and actions?  My point is, none of it was his.  He got all the other information elsewhere and didn't know it because he was a licensed MD of any kind.

[DM1906]

Unless you've made an effort to become familiar with high velocity rifle cartridge science (very few shooters/handloaders do), you'd have never had any reason to look into it, or acknowledge it, if you had heard of it.  Many/most folks just don't study or familiarize themselves with information not relative to their efforts.

I'm well studied and aware. 

I'm happy agreeing to disagree. 

Still, regardless what's been covered overall and why, I have yet to come across the velocity range of 2200-2300 fps as specifically considered in what has been discussed already.  I'm not saying it isn't written somewhere.  I was just hoping to be pointed in a direction showing the teaching of that velocity range for the reason it's been discussed below.

The number isn't "magic".  It's relevant, and empirical.  Supersonic velocity creates a disruption in the atmosphere, within a range around the object at speed, consistent with its mass.  A jet fighter traveling supersonic can shatter glass at as much as 100 feet or more, and can be heard and felt for a mile or more.  A supersonic small arms projectile creates the same affect, but at a much smaller scale, which can be heard/felt for feet/yards.  The same affect will happen within fluid tissue, only at a much more narrow window, due to absorbtion by the tissue, vs. the much less dense atmosphere.  This affect will occur within fluid tissue, as the projectile is continuing supersonic velocity.  Supersonic handgun projectiles may reach a target at supersonic velocities, but that velocity is immediately reduced to subsonic upon impact, or very shortly after, never having reached the mass of fluid tissue.  A rifle round at much higher velocity will penetrate the fluid tissue, retaining supersonic velocity through much, or all, of the fluid tissue.  Also consider, the density of the mass encountered by a projectile affects the transonic velocity.  More dense is lower.  A projectile encountering increased density will decelerate at a greater rate, and more so due to sonic friction.  The same affect that can disintegrate aircraft not properly designed for supersonic velocities.  Handgun projectiles are designed to transfer energy very quickly, and will rapidly decelerate as density increases.  While some slower projectiles, although supersonic upon impact, may cause some very shallow hydrostatic affect, it can't be maintained into deep tissue.  This is essentially the reason handgun rounds are not effective, historically, unless a vital organ is struck.  A high velocity rifle projectile can cause vital organ rupture without ever striking it, and often several inches from the physical wound channel.  I've seen these affects first-hand during autopsies, some at homicide scenes (too obvious to not see), and in small, medium and large game I've taken.

Another excellent example of this was shown on an episode of Myth Busters.  They fired several small arms into a pool, and found that only the slower handgun rounds would actually penetrate into the water and maintain lethal velocity (a few feet), while the high velocity rounds fragmented shortly after impact, with almost no lethal penetration.  The large body of the water far exceeded the projectile's integrity at that velocity vs. medium density.