Underwood/ Lehigh Defense 10mm copper solids

[Kenk]

Over the last few days I have been talking with one of Lehigh Defense's support reps. Peter has shed a great deal of light on their products, specifically their 150gr Xtreme Defense bullet. At that point I brought up Underwood's use of Lehigh products and Peter proceeded to tell me Underwood's owner Steve, is actually using the 150gr Xtreme Defense bullet in his Xtreme Hunter rd. At that point he showed me some hog autopsy pictures, and gosh, talk about a wound cavity. The interesting part is that the wound cavity hog picks were actually made by a 90gr 9mm Xtreme Defense bullet, not the 150gr. Barring any Minnesota DNR restrictions, these may be the ticket for this year's deer season.

[Kenk]

Below are the comments from the guy that shot the hog

Ken, below was a correspondence from the customer, confirming our analysis of the photos.  Yeah, a .355 Diameter bullet created a 1 inch hole with tissue damage out to 3 inches.  Pretty amazing for a Solid Bullet!

See Below:
Customer Feedback:
The hole is at least 1 inch across, with tissue damage to at least 3 inches. Not sure if that is from bone fragments, or hydrostatic shock though. The damage to the lung is at least 3 inches on the one side.  The photo of the first hogs lungs show at least 3 inches of tissue damage, and there was very little if any bone contact. 

[Rojo27]

Thanks for passing on details of your conversation.  Be interesting if you could attach the pictures too. 

[Kenk]

Here's one of them

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[Kenk]

😀

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[Rojo27]

Depending on which gr the 9mm Xtreme Defender line was used (regular, +P, +P+) it would have had initial muzzle velocity of 1550 fps to 1400fps.  Course we don't know the distance before striking target.

The interesting element of those pictures to me is the implications for the perpetual argument here and other places about the actual wounding potential of a non-expanding, solid projectile such as the Lehigh Xtreme Defender line. 

Current conventional wisdom points to the only wounding mechanism of a nonexpanding handgun projectiles being exclusively limited to only tissues which the projectile face directly contacts...This is a position supported by a number of wise, experienced people.

Lehigh/Underwood of course asset that unique geometrical features of this solid projectile combined with high velocities provide similar if not superior performance to conventional JHP.  Also a position at lest open for consideration by wise, experienced people.

Looking at these pictures in this particular situation, speaking for myself: I see wounding and damage well in excess of that which the bullet face "drilled" through.  I don't know anything about fluid dynamics, fluid transfer nor am I a ballistician.   However, I observe enough in those pictures that points to possibility of there being something to Lehigh/Underwood's claims.
 
 

[Kenk]

These pics were from a 90gr 9mm, so the UW 150gr Extreme Hunter is bound to he a nasty rd.

[Kenk]

Well, after talking with the Minnesota DNR, the only requirement for Whitetail hunting is that it is a center fire bullet. If the projectile happens to be a copper solid, it's not an issue he said. Now on to the testing phase  : )

[SPDSR]

I still find it super shady that Lehigh and Underwood tout these xtreme lines as so superior, but have never proven or displayed this with any testing. One would think the inventor and manufacturer of a bullet would have oodles of sophisticated testing to display. But nope. Just words and apparently "dead hog autopsy photos". That's really not of any value since there are way too many factors. Size of hog, location of shot, angle, impacted structures, comparison to any other type of round in the same scenario, and on and on. Would a Barnes bullet have the same, less or more damage if shot instead? I'm not sure and unfortunately neither is Lehigh.

[Rojo27]

I still find it super shady that Lehigh and Underwood tout these xtreme lines as so superior, but have never proven or displayed this with any testing. One would think the inventor and manufacturer of a bullet would have oodles of sophisticated testing to display. But nope. Just words and apparently "dead hog autopsy photos". That's really not of any value since there are way too many factors. Size of hog, location of shot, angle, impacted structures, comparison to any other type of round in the same scenario, and on and on. Would a Barnes bullet have the same, less or more damage if shot instead? I'm not sure and unfortunately neither is Lehigh.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  I've closely followed hunting ammunition for a long time and don't recall ever seeing any manufacturer produce the "oodles of sophisticated testing" your calling for.  Barnes certainly didn't.   
Barnes copper bullets caught on over time with an accumulation of personal anecdotal testing and personal reviews..

Speaking for myself, I'm not convinced of anything yet.  I've seen enough ballistic testing & "hog autopsy photos" to conclude in my own mind that there is clearly something going on beyond conventional JHP wounding (only damage is from tissue directly touched by the handgun projectile); however, YMMV.  I've seen what fmj wound channels look like and differences are apparent to me.  I'm also not prepared to jump on the Extreme Defender bandwagon yet; cause I haven't personally tested it's effectiveness yet.  I plan to at some point and so for now, I'm keeping an open mind on the topic.   

[Kenk]

Thanks Rojo, I'm a bit reluctant too, and will likely stick with the tried and true UW 200gr XTP for next months hunt

[The_Shadow]

My answer is that in years of the past, meat was put on the tables with solid lead bullets before any Jacketed stuff existed.  Animals were harvested with spears, arrows, etc.
The animals are not bullet proof if the bullet is of sufficient weigh and velocity to accomplish the task.  Incapacitation is accomplished two ways, total shut down of the nervous system (brain or spinal cord) or trauma to vita organs with blood loss which can take time as they bleed out and no longer have 02 & food for the cells to work.

[Overkill338]

There is no 150gr Xtreme Defender. The Xtreme Hunter is 150gr, but penetration is way too high for self defense use.

[Kenk]

Morning Overkill338,
The below email is from Pete Vogel from lehigh-defense. Also, I am considering this rd for deer hunting, not self defense
Thanks

Good Morning Ken, actually our XD's are the equivalent of UW's Xtreme Hunter.  Kevin, knows the value of our XD's for hunting applications, so he wanted his customer's to understand that our XD technology can actually be used in multiple applications.  When we developed the XP and XD bullets we did so to fill a gap in the Personal Defense Market, then we slowly expanded into Hunting.  The hunting market is a tough market to crack, especially with a new technology.  Hunters are creators of habit, they have a set-up that works for them so they are very reluctant to change.

However, we have found that Hog Hunters are not necessarily fixed on one certain set-up, they actually love to experiment.  I think that's because the opportunities to drop hogs are much greater than a one in a life time shot at a prize white tail.  Thus, our XD's were put to the test by Hog Hunters.  Actually, I think a number of our customers actually shot hogs to prove whether or not our XD technology would be a solid choice for their Personal Defense needs.  Then, a number of customers that hunt in Africa started to pick-up on our XD technology, because they are use to hunting with solids, and put it to the test in Africa.  Needless to say, the results speak for themselves.

Sorry for rambling on here, but I thought that you would be interested in a little background on how the transition from PD to Hunting happened within our companies.  As for UW's Xtreme Hunter, I have not studied his offering too close, but I would have to believe that Kevin bumps up the velocities with his Xtreme Hunter line.  Kevin definitely likes to push the limits when it comes to velocity.

I hope this helps.

Thanks

Pete

[Overkill338]

My point here is the XD bullet and the XH bullet is completely different. The Hunter line has the smaller front glutes like the XP, with a dip in like a hollow point.

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