Guns vs. Bears 2: Glock or .44 Magnum for Grizzly?

[sqlbullet]

All grizzly bears are brown bears, but not all brown bears are grizzly bears.  Scientifically the grizzly bear is usually called a North American brown bear.  Globally there are 15 recognized sub-species of brown bear, and five of those are generically considered "grizzly":  mainland grizzly (Ursus arctos horribilis), Kodiak bear (U. a. middendorffi), peninsular grizzly (U. a. gyas), California grizzly (U. a. californicus - extinct), and Mexican grizzly bear (U. a. nelsoni - extinct)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursus_(genus)

[38-40]

Another handgun vs bear. Doesn't give caliber though

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/28/hunter-in-montana-kills-grizzly-bear-injures-cub-in-self-defense-officials-say.html


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kenk]

Gosh, they are just really big critters

[38-40]

Yes the tourist want to hug them and squeeze them and pet them and call them George


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kenk]

😂

[tcecil88]

Obviously I am late to this party, but if I was going into known Grizzly bear country, my first choice would not be a 10mm.
I would carry my S&W 329PD loaded with something like Underwoods 220 gr. Xtreme Penetrator  or a 300 gr. Hardcast load. If all I had was the 10mm for a pistol, I would load it with a heavy hardcast bullet and then buy or borrow a 12 gauge and load it with slugs.

[Kenk]

A good combination for sure

[gandog56]

Obviously I am late to this party, but if I was going into known Grizzly bear country, my first choice would not be a 10mm.
I would carry my S&W 329PD loaded with something like Underwoods 220 gr. Xtreme Penetrator  or a 300 gr. Hardcast load. If all I had was the 10mm for a pistol, I would load it with a heavy hardcast bullet and then buy or borrow a 12 gauge and load it with slugs.

where you get a .40 cal 300 grain hardcast?

[spaniel]

Obviously I am late to this party, but if I was going into known Grizzly bear country, my first choice would not be a 10mm.
I would carry my S&W 329PD loaded with something like Underwoods 220 gr. Xtreme Penetrator  or a 300 gr. Hardcast load. If all I had was the 10mm for a pistol, I would load it with a heavy hardcast bullet and then buy or borrow a 12 gauge and load it with slugs.

where you get a .40 cal 300 grain hardcast?

He isn't referencing a .40cal 300gr.  He referenced that in a 329PD, which is a 44Mag, and this particular gun and ammo combination happens to be exactly what I carry in grizz country on backpack hunts, despite my overall rabid enthusiasm for the 10mm.

[Ray F.]

My single uneventful experience with a black boar made me read a lot of blog/forum discussions about bear and I've come to believe that a lot of suggestions that are discussed as generalities are actually very location and breed specific.  I think the challenges of an online bear defense discussion lie with differences in location and breed.  For instance, a 10 year veteran Park Ranger in NC may bet his last dollar that black bears will always run unless the human acts in a negligent manner because that's all he's witnessed and nothing other than bear spray is needed.  He's seen it 100 times.  On the other hand, an Alaskan native may think a side arm is useless because of his experiences.

I believe bear spray is great for hikers, but it won't be too effective when I'm sneaking into my VA deer stand at 4:30am (and I've got 2 weeks of pics of a sow and 2 yearlings rolling through at 3:45 on the trail camera).  Likewise, just based on the muzzle energy, a 200gr 10mm LCSWC moving at 1200fps will kill any bear up to 320lbs, but even a 0.4" hole going through the vitals of an attacking bear will take a little while to convince him he's dead.  Safe to bet he'll be gnawing and clawing until he keels over unless you get a CNS shot.

I don't know where the OP is planning on going or what he's planning on doing, so I'll say this:  In SE VA or Eastern NC, I'd hunt bear with a 10mm and use it for defense in places I know they're averaging 250-300lbs, but if there's a fabled blackie that's said to be 350lbs (or above) or I'm on the fringes of the Dismal Swamp, the Ruger Alaskan 454 will be on me. 

Just my 2 cents.

[spaniel]

On another note, I'll be taking any and all information that comes from WY Game & Fish with a grain of salt. They really want to sell grizzly trophy hunts, and one of the touted benefits is that by hunting bears, bears will learn to be afraid of people. This of course assumes that a bear can learn a lesson from dying...Regardless, WY G&F isn't above putting whatever spin on this they think will help them legalize trophy hunting for grizzlies.

I think this is a bit dismissive of game's intellect.

We had a park near here over-run with deer because one of the conditions of land donation to establish the park was no deer hunting.  You went there, you saw them everywhere.  Well, it got to an extreme level and they found a way to hold a disabled veterans hunt and cull a bunch of deer.  Note, they did not kill them all, only a fraction.  But now you go there during daylight and whereas deer used to stroll unafraid, they are now invisible and seen quite rarely.

Not all stalks are successful.  Not all shots meet their mark.  Animals learn they are being hunted, and it changes their behavior.

[Kenk]

Yep, I see that a lot with coyote hunting, they become educated quickly

[Muskrat]

You're comparing the behavior of herd animals which are very much in the food chain to the behavior of solitary, pinnacle predators who evolved with no fear of anything other than another grizzly. If killing grizzlies was going to make them change their behavior, it would have happened long ago. If I recall correctly there have been 20+ killings of "problem bears" this year by authorities or trains or vehicles. Bears which choose to push into populated areas are already short lived, but that doesn't change their fundamental behavior.

Most grizzlies already go to extreme lengths to avoid conflicts with people, and the ones that don't end up dead anyway. The only way a grizzly is going to "learn" they're being hunted is if a sow and cub are targeted and one of them is killed in the presence of the other. So the hunter either kills a reproductive sow, which is NOT in any of the game management plans currently written, or they kill a cub, and probably have to kill a sow as well. A cub at the end of its tenure with its mother might survive after the mother is killed, but most cubs wont.

I guess you could include bears who are wounded by gunfire but not killed. THAT sounds like a great way to educate bears...I know I'd feel safer traveling around a bear that had a bullet in it's ass and associated me with that annoyance.

But there's really no reason to hypothesize...Grizzly bears have been hunted in parts of Alaska and Canada since europeans first arrived, and it hasn't altered their behavior. They still maul people who surprise them at close range, they still claim any meat they find as their own, and they still break into cabins in search of food. Why would it work in Wyoming if it doesn't work in Alaska?

It's a hollow argument which attempts to legitimize an activity many see as repugnant by preying on the deep seated, instinctual fear people have of teeth and claws.

.

[38-40]

I think it's more of a selection of animal disposition. More aggressive ie less fearful animals are harvested thus reducing the number of animals with an aggressive disposition. While animals with a more reclusive disposition are less likely to be harvested. Thus fewer aggressive animals = less conflicts in the long run


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Muskrat]

I think it's more of a selection of animal disposition. More aggressive ie less fearful animals are harvested thus reducing the number of animals with an aggressive disposition. While animals with a more reclusive disposition are less likely to be harvested. Thus fewer aggressive animals = less conflicts in the long run


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, but that only works for the destruction of "problem bears" which have unsolicited contact with people, primarily because of the sloppy food and garbage handling habits of people living in the boundary country where grizzlies might not live full time, but occasionally or frequently visit. The destruction of bears which are attracted to human food, garbage, or livestock, and thereby come into contact with armed people, is high enough to put the future of the species at risk. Hunting grizzlies for sport will, in no way, reduce aggressive bears from the population. But it will further reduce the genetic pool and the longterm survivability of the species.

Grizzlies are open-country animals with little if any innate fear of their surroundings, and thus they have a generally low situational awareness. Most of their attention is directed at the ground directly below their nose, which is where they find the majority of their food. You couldn't pick an easier species to hunt. Anybody who can tell which way the wind is blowing can walk to within 200 yards of a grizzly without any risk of detection, and someone with moderate hunting skills can halve that distance, still without the bear knowing they're there. If anything, sport hunting is going to increase the destruction of bears which have avoided human contact.

There is simply nothing about sport hunting which will reduce the number of overly aggressive or truculent bears in the population. There is nothing about sport hunting which will change the behavior of grizzlies, or make people safer in the company of bears. And in my opinion, there's nothing about sport hunting of grizzly bears that is remotely moral or ethical. After all, if the pinnacle value of an animal is something to be hunted as a trophy, when do we get to start sport hunting bald eagles? I could have bagged five today alone, and wouldn't they look splendid mounted in my house!

I have no issue with someone defending their own life by killing a grizzly bear (for which I'd pick the 10mm over the .44), but that's a totally different thing than going out to kill a grizzly for the thrill of it. That I find primitively shortsighted, and frankly vile. Grizzly bears live in less than one-half of one-percent of the lower 48 states...people who fear the great bear have PLENTY of other real estate to play in.