What’s wrong with Plain Jane Hornady 180gr XTP.

[Rick R]

Internet forums are populated with "RKI", "SME", Aficionados, Zealots and the dreaded "Mall Ninja".  You know who you are.    I spent 28 years in a job where somebody handed me a box of ammo off of the State Contract once a year and told me to go make society safe from murderers, robbers, rapist, drug dealers and jaywalkers.

For the sake of discussion,

Forumites like to discuss the boutique mail order rounds that squeeze the last possible fps with the latest high tec projectile out of a cartridge.  Or eyebrow smoking thermonuclear handloads with bullets cast hard enough to hole a main battle tank.

I picked the vanilla Hornady 180gr as an example since my local Cabela's always has them in stock and good old SGAmmo has cases at a decent price they will throw on the UPS truck for you.  A plus is that Hornady sells the 180xtp as a component so you can handload a clone for practice. 

What deficiency does the Hornady load present for self defense, hunting, target shooting, zombie apocalypse, etc that would make the other available factory loads SUBSTANTIALLY better?

[Grenadier]

Of course you make good sense. Hornady ammo has a great reputation, is reasonably priced, and you can find it in any decent sized sporting goods store or gun shop.

I suspect the 180gr XTP bullet was originally developed for defensive and law enforcement use in the .40 S&W. I'm new to the 10mm and so far all I've been shooting with my 6" Kimber is paper. Nevertheless, I procured the pistol for hunting and woods carry. The question for me is whether or not I can expect adequate penetration with the 180gr XTP on deer and bear. I have my concerns.

Hornady says, "Precise serrations divide the XTP® into symmetrical sections, strategically weakening the jacket and initiating controlled expansion even at low velocities." They load the same 180gr XTP bullets in .40 S&W and 10mm cartridges. The .40 S&W load has an advertised muzzle velocity of 950 fps. If the bullet is made to expand at 950 fps then how is it going to perform at 1250 fps from a 5" 10mm pistol? Worse, I chronographed the 10mm 180gr XTP load at 1312 fps from my 6" barreled pistol. I want a hunting bullet to pass through a big animal. I want deep penetration and destruction of bones and vitals. And, I want a good blood trail to follow. But how can a self-defense bullet designed to expand "rapidly" at 950 fps not expand too rapidly for hunting use at 1312 fps?  Therein may lie the deficiency you asked for, at least as far as my intended use.

And that is why we see a variety of loads and bullets in every caliber.

[Kenk]

Hey Rick,
Depending on your intended use, the Hornady 180gr should work well. If this is for defense, I think you would be fine, however if you intend on Whitetail hunting, I personally would step it up to Underwood's 200gr XTP, or UW's 220gr hard cast if there are bear in the area...just my 2 cents

Ken

Ken

[Rojo27]

Greetings Rick,
Thank you Officer for your service to the community.

I would characterize myself as an enthusiast for the 10mm as I have interest and appreciatation for the unique qualities of this caliber & the firearms that shoot it.  Doesn't mean it's the only tool I'll use.  However, the topic of what saved the 10mm is a question batted around this forum over the last half year or so.  Many suggested a specific or handful of particular firearms or makers as the primary reason.  Also referenced was websites and this one in particular where enthusiasts could come to learn and share information about a cartridge we all admire.  As an admirer Its wise to try and learn as much as possible about the performance characteristics of a cartridge I often carry for self defense & hunting. 
Nothing in the world wrong with "vanilla"  Hornady 180gr XTP.  In my opinion (which is worth what you paid for it) it's possibly the best all around utilitarian commercial choice available for hunting or self defense.  Out of a full sized firearm, it seems to do quite well at almost everythin (SD or hunting).  I don't ever recall seeing or hearing about it failing.  I'd personally feel confident carrying it in urban to rural environments anywhere in the lower 48 thats legal to carry.  I might prefer a different choice if brown bear are present, but even then Hornady 180gr XTP would be damn site better option than throwing rocks or bear spray alone (huge grizzly have been killed by 22 short rifle, although I have less than 0.0 interest in personally trying). 

While certainly not the best at any particular job or purpose, Hornady 180gr XTP is a very good all around choice for 10mm.  "Not too hot, not too cool" performance envelope might be just right for you.  YMMV. 

Carry on & regards,

[tommac919]

Nothing wrong with the "plain jane 180 xtp " round.... esp with 2 legged predators 
Matter of fact , the less then max round will prob allow you to put more on target faster due to less recoil.

32 yrs here, tho my dept used Gold dots.  Either one will do the job well.

[Rick R]

Thanks guys!

Actually FWIW, The XTP predates the .40S&W.  We carried S&W 1006 pistols for a few years and ammo came from a local company that loaded XTPs in new brass.  I've shot road injured deer with the 10mm XTP and taken one buck with my .44 Magnum using them.  I don't remember getting a pass thru with them.  When Winchester began producing the 10mm Silvertip we switched to them.  The Silvertips didn't pass thru deer either.  But they all humanely killed injured deer.

I've been carrying my SR1911 loaded with the 200gr Gold Dots and I'll carry my 200gr lead flat nosed reloads for deer hunting.   With the price and availability of the Hornady load I'm thinking I'll pick up a box or two of ammo or component XTP bullets everytime I wander into Cabelas just to build up my ammo supply a bit.

[Kenk]

Yep, 170gr Silvertips are awesome, only problem is that they only seem to be available around deer season, otherwise I can't find them anywhere

[sqlbullet]

What deficiency does the Hornady load present for self defense, hunting, target shooting, zombie apocalypse, etc that would make the other available factory loads SUBSTANTIALLY better?

Let's examine your four scenarios.

1. Self-Defense

If I assume against human criminals, no advantage.  In fact, based on Lucky Gunner's recent ballistics test, there may be no better factory load for self-defense against humans based on the FBI protocols:  https://www.luckygunner.com/10mm-auto-180-gr-jhp-xtp-hornady-20-rounds#geltest

However, 10mm is often selected for self-defense on hunts against dangerous game like bear, moose or big hogs.  In those cases, more than 18" of terminal penetration may be desired and advantageous.

2. Hunting

You can see this one right off.  Hunting what?  White-tail deer, probably a fine choice.  Small hogs?  Also probably fine, though small hogs often are in the company of big hogs.  Black Bear?  Again, more penetration please.

3. Target Shooting

Pretty wide field again.  If we are talking about pure Bullseye style target shooting for smallest groups at the exclusion of all else, I would take a soft lead SWC load at a sedate 750-800 fps in the lightest bullet that didn't compromise group size.  IPSC against a standard cardboard target...I would load only to make major, and not a single foot per second or grain of bullet weight beyond.  And I would favor lighter bullets.  Got some poppers or a bowling pins in the mix?  At that point the Hornady load would probably start to be competitive, though lighter/faster shooting loads would probably still perform as well.

And, the cost of the XTP would be a huge disadvantage here.  A cheap plated or cast bullet that flies true would be fine.

4. Zombie Apocalypse

First, which zombies?

http://zombie.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie_Comparison_Chart

Hearing gunshots and requiring headshots both factor in here (and we are well into mall-ninja territory with this response ).  Assuming The Walking Dead style zombies that both hear gunshots and require headshots, I would inclined to select a subsonic load using common .400 caliber projectiles.  And I would probably select 200 grain so I could load near full power, but keep them subsonic.  Combined with a suppressor this would give me a quiet load that would not attract other zombies, but still give me full energy potential if I needed to use the round ad-hoc for taking game or other defensive purposes.  But, in reality in a ZA scenario you would be more likely to see me with my Ruger standard model upgraded with a suppressor and an AR-15 SBR in 300 blackout....with the 10mm Auto Glock 20 in reserve for jobs the 22 pistol couldn't do, and the AR-10 in 358 Win suppressed in the car for jobs the 300 blackout couldn't do.

Other thoughts

Your point is well taken. For personal defense against other human aggressors, the Hornady load appears to be ideal.  And for most other purposes shot placement is still a key factor and if you put a 180 grain XTP at 1150 fps in the right place, there are few problems it won't solve or at least mitigate.

But.....

First, there are aspects of the FBI protocol that are compromises.  The biggest one being the penalty for "over" penetration.  Given the option, there is not an FBI agent in the world, or any other law enforcement/military type that understands, that will tell you to take your pistol to a gunfight instead of your rifle.  And while there are today some fine 5.56/223 loads that perform well in the criteria, they are downloaded so as to not "over-penetrate".

Yes, in an ideal world against a human target the round will stop in the body.  This provides two benefits.  First, it ensures that all the energy was used up in terminal messy-ness, which facilitates exsanguination.  Second, bullets that don't leave the target can't go on to hurt others downrange.

To address these in reverse order...Most shots fired in defensive or police shootings miss the target completely.  Talk about over-penetration.  So that second concern becomes a weak reason for the standard at best.

And as far as the first, the limit is there because of the difficulty in actually measuring how much damage was done to the target.  If two bullet designs of equal weight, velocity and therefore energy enter an 18" gel block, and one exits while the other doesn't, the one that stayed in did more damage to something.  So it is better.  But if two bullets of different energy enter the target and the lower energy one stays in the target, while the higher energy one exits, but both expanded to the same diameter, which one did more damage?  The answer is we don't know.  We would need to either have some effective measure of the wound channel, or we would need a way to measure the exit velocity and retained weight of the higher energy round.  Since measuring those things is not practical, the FBI just imposed a limit.

And that works fine as long as the people designing/building the ammo are blind to the test criteria, or as long as they respect the limitation of those criteria and don't game the system.  But that is not what is happening.

We all know more energy on target is better.  That is why rifles are better than pistols.  It is why we carry 9mm and not 380 auto and 45 instead of 9mm, and 40 S&W instead of 45, and 10mm above them all.

But, by FBI four layer gel protocol, there is NO advantage to the 10mm auto 180 grain XTP with 535 lb-ft of energy over a 147 grain Golden Saber with 321 lb-ft of energy.  Both penetrated between 16" and 17" and both expanded to .63".  The fact that the 10mm round dumped an additional 214 lb-ft of energy into the target doesn't factor in at all.

True, part of that energy when to expanding a bullet that is 27% larger in diameter and has 22% more mass. But, it left an additional 67% more energy in the target.  And it expanded 17% less from it's original diameter (less work getting to the final diameter).  All that additional energy had to go somewhere, and it went into the target in some way.  Physics tells us that it was either heat or mechanical deformation, and we have accounted for the differences in mechanical deformation of the bullet and they are pretty slight.  That leaves doing bad things to flesh and bone.

So what we are seeing is ammo makers watering down 10mm ammo for the test.  If I were selecting carry ammo for personal defense based on the Lucky Gunner chart I would pick the Sig V-Crown 180, with the Winchester Silvertip and Hornady 180 grain basically tied for second.  All three hit with 510-535 lb ft of energy.  But the Sig load expanded larger and penetrated deeper, which means it would probably perform better on the rest of the FBI protocol tests.

And there is the real rub.  The FBI protocol is actually made up of six different tests, and the score is an aggregate of them all.  But someone, somewhere decided that only one of the tests really mattered for people carrying a concealed weapon.  The fact is the FBI tests are cross dependent for validity.  The "barrier" tests are thought of as giving information only for shooting through car doors, walls or windshields, when in reality those tests also inform things like getting through a breast plate, ribs, pelvis or skull.  Ammo like the V-Crown that over penetrated a bit on the four layer test may have ruled the world on the barrier tests, more than making up for it's measly 1.5" of over penetration.  Or another load may have shown us something we didn't consider.

Finally, the real advantage of supporting the boutique guys that are driving the limits of performance of the 10mm auto is that someday new bullet designs are going to find a way to make use of that extra energy.  They may not be the best loads for defensive carry now, but they push boundaries back.  And like selecting a rifle over a pistol, more energy is better if you figure out how to use it.

[Rick R]

SQL> Select from dbo.10mm.users where "clue" > 0
SQL> one row returned
sqlbullet


Forgive my grammar, I haven't written sql queries in several years. 

Thanks for the well thought out response.

[Rick R]

Well after surfing thru the Lucky Gunner site I see they tested the 200gr Gold Dot load and got @19.5" of penetration in their test.   The big "AND" is that the Gold Dot is $17/20 rds compared to $20/20 rds for the Hornady load.

Since my 200gr cast load hits very close to the Speer load we may have found my "stock it deep" decision.

[Rojo27]

sqlbullet, I've reread your post in its entirety 3 times because its chalked so full of KNOWLEDGE!  WOW...

One point I'd like to add to your dissertating.  Lucky Gunner and nearly everyone else doing gel testing these days (even Andrew & 5pins) use Clear Ballistics Gel Blocks.  The FBI protocol is foundationally based on true 10% ordinance gel which yields documented different results compared to Clear Ballistics blocks.  Now I'm not running down Clear Ballistics, its a fine media and WAY, WAY more practical to use than authentic 10% ordinance gel. 

One of the different characteristics Clear Ballistics yields often times is deeper penetration vs true ordinance gel.  Andrew discussed it and people like Brassfetcher have documented the differences.  A decent rule of thumb in my opinion is to reduce results in Clear Ballistics  down by 15% to 20% for  projecting what 10% ordinance gel results might be.  Which makes those borderline "over the limit" performers in Clear Ballistics even better in my view. 

[Kenk]

sqlbullet,
So would the .45 Auto V-Crown apply in that caliber as a top choice for defensive purposes also, or do you see better alternatives
Thanks

Ken

[Rojo27]

sqlbullet,
So would the .45 Auto V-Crown apply in that caliber as a top choice for defensive purposes also, or do you see better alternatives
Thanks

Ken

Ken,
I'm far from sqlbullet but Sig's 45acp 200gr V-Crown did not do well in Lucky Gunners test....
https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-200-grain-jhp-v-crown-sig-sauer-20-rounds#geltest
For defensive purposes, I stay away from it in 45acp.....

Very, very hard to beat the Federal HST, Remington Golden Sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Hornady XTP  in 45acp!!

[Kenk]

Thanks Rojo, that's great news, I have a few hundred  230gr +P HST's bottled up from the last ammo scare : )

[The_Shadow]

Well after surfing thru the Lucky Gunner site I see they tested the 200gr Gold Dot load and got @19.5" of penetration in their test.   The big "AND" is that the Gold Dot is $17/20 rds compared to $20/20 rds for the Hornady load.

Since my 200gr cast load hits very close to the Speer load we may have found my "stock it deep" decision.

Rick. Thanks for your service.  I have been begging Speer to make the 200 grain Gold Dots available to the handloading community as components.
The reason being is the extra weight and being a bonded bullet really makes a difference.  I have some older 200 gr Gold Dots that were from a pulled 40S&W contract.  They are bonded but are slightly different than those being made today.

Now about squeezing more velocity from our rounds, for me is performance out at distances beyond 50 yards where velocities will be more of that of slower muzzle velocities to retain flatter trajectories and energy out there at distance!  In close they tend to expand more rapidly and actually have slightly less penetration...

I have no issue with the use of Hornady's bullets  XTP or HAP as they are great bullets.  I have even driven a 200 XTP in a 40 cal sabot from my Muzzle loader starting at 2000 fps at the muzzle and even out at 150 yards they do quite well on deer.  Busting ribs in, lungs hit and ribs on the far side with bullet just under the hide of the farside...

Here is the data that was related to the Hornady Ammo specs.


The performance envelope for the 10mm XTP was 850 to 1200 fps