10mm Auto Rim anyone???

[TonyRumore]

If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver.  Maybe SHOT 2020.

Tony

[woods_walker]

If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver.  Maybe SHOT 2020.

Tony

And maybe I could convince you to build another M1 carbine like your dad's? I would even be willing to accept it in the standard 10mm case...

[Ramjet]

If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver.  Maybe SHOT 2020.

Tony

Every time I pick up my 10mm revolvers I think how ,I have more impressive they would be as a 10mm magnum.....

[RJM52]

.401 PowerMag would be a simple solution...

[Captain O]

If HKS speedloaders were made for the 10mm Auto RIm it may prove useful in the woods. A pouch used to carry .41 Magnum HKS speedloaders would function quite well. Then again, pouches used to hold 10mm cartridges in moon clips would allow you to carry between 18-24 cartridges for immediate use in a "combat" situation.

Either way, it would work rather well. (Six of one, a half-dozen of the other).

[woods_walker]

.401 PowerMag would be a simple solution...

Like THAT round turned out a winner!  ROFL!!!

[Spudmeister]

I love the idea of a rimmed 10mm cartridge.  Not so much because I can't do without it but because semi auto cartridges are so massively efficient/powerful for their size.  If a revolver were specifically made for the 9mm rimmed cartridge (1980's) and made as small (shorter cylinder) as possible, you'd get a lot of gun in a tiny package.  Same for the 40, 10mm and 45 acp.  Problem is these cartridges either with rims or moon clips are put in revolvers needlessly large for these efficient cartridges.  So we get a Blackhawk, GP-100, N frame Smith or whatever that is sized for a much larger/longer cartridge.  So I can take a heavily loaded 357, lightly loaded 41 mag and all sorts of combinations of existing rimmed cartridges that are already in place.  That is tough to compete against. 

As good as full moon clips can be, America does not have much love for them.  Great ideas often fail as gun owners have a hard to predict mix of tradition, cool, effectiveness and pointlessness.  I think the 6 shot GP-100 in 10mm comes closer than anything else to maxing out the potential of a 10mm in a revolver.  All the more so if the cartridge were rimmed.  Pretty much what Ruger has already done with the GP in 5 shot 44 Special form. 

Sorry.  I know this is some rambling.  But I love putting rims on semi auto cartridges.  Moon clips are good but they are not the end all. They belong as an option on the 10mm case.  But I don't think anybody is going to build a new gun around it and a LOT more existing guns will have to be sold before manufactures will spend any more money on  the project.

[woods_walker]

Spudmeister,

Could you please explain how a rim on a rimless cartridge improves performance? This reminds me of the guy who wanted more chrome on his 'Vette "so it would go faster".

Did you ever stop to consider that the potential of the 10mm cartridge possibly will not and cannot be maximized in a revolver?  Just because you can get the square peg into that round hole does not mean it works good or even better than it does in it's own square hole.

[Spudmeister]

WW...

It is easy to explain.  It's easy because I did not explain my point well in the first place.  The rim, of course, has no effect on performance.  But if you take a 41 magnum you get a much longer case that only gives a little bit more power.  The shorter the barrel the less the difference is.  Take a 9mm and a hot 38 Special.  They give about the same performance but the 9mm is much shorter.  So if you put a rim on a 9mm case you get about the same performance as that hot 38 but with a much smaller case that can be put into a revolver with a much shorter cylinder.  Same thing with 10mm vs 41. Then you can maintain performance in a smaller gun. Not that the industry really does that.  It is to say that many semi auto cartridges simply do more with less than a lot of revolver cartridges.... though revolver cartridges are sometimes more powerful.  Just not as efficient.  I've spent years with full moon clips.  It is personal choice to prefer rims. 

And you are quite right that it is mighty difficult for a revolver to match the velocity of a sealed breach semi auto.  But it also mighty difficult for a semi auto to allow the variance in bullet design, pressure, bullet weight and LOA.  So I think, like rims and full moon clips, it is nice to be able to pick your poison. 

[woods_walker]

Spudmeister,

You can't always get what you want when using a shorter barrel. Some cartridges just don't perform in short barrels under ANY circumstances.

The 10mm has the same handicap that 9mm has in short barrels- the short case and minimal powder capacity restrict the choices of powder that would give desirable performance. Try to go to heavier bullets for the 10mm and your powder choices are restricted even further to the point of being like .40 S&W loads. In other words, some cartridges MUST have more barrel to perform.

Don't agree? Let's look at the .264 Winchester Magnum. When Winchester released this cartridge, all performance data was based on a 26" barrel. Put that cartridge in a 24" or 23" barrel, as most riflemakers use, and your performance drops dramatically. The cartridge MUST HAVE all of that barrel length to meet it's design parameters. The 10mm is no different.
There is definitely a point of diminishing returns with the 10mm- a 2.75, 2.5, 2.25 inch (or even shorter) barrel robs the load of so much performance that it is an exercise in futility.  You are far better off figuring out how to put .357 Sig in a revolver.
On another note, could you  explain why revolvers would need to get even smaller than they are? I have a Taurus 85 and a SP101. Do we need to go smaller? As we go smaller with revolvers, accuracy and control suffer.

One more thing...
Comparing the 10mm with the .41 Magnum is ridiculous. They are 2 different designs, made to work differently, in different shooting platforms, with different projectiles. How can you possibly say that a rim on a 10mm would allow you to match the performance of a .41 mag??? Since when could a 10mm cartridge shoot a 265 grain bullet at 1300 FPS? Or shoot a 295 grain SWC? What's the heaviest bullet the 10mm can shoot? 220 or 230 grain? There's that diminishing returns thing again- those bullets are longer, will require longer C.O.A.L. to get enough powder in the case to push them faster, and will not fit in your short cylinder. 

You said,
"And you are quite right that it is mighty difficult for a revolver to match the velocity of a sealed breach semi auto.  But it also mighty difficult for a semi auto to allow the variance in bullet design, pressure, bullet weight and LOA"
What do you plan to shoot out of your 10mm? A Volkswagon or a dining room chair? Virtually any load made to SAAMI standards will safely work in any 10mm pistol. Sometimes a bit of tuning is needed for a particular load or gun but if it is so odd that you need a revolver to make it shoot, maybe you should rethink your premise?

[Spudmeister]

WW...

Well, I have explained my opinion twice to you and your purpose only seems to tear it down.  You are not listening or you cannot understand or your experience is limited.  In any case, I have said what I have said.  If you do not like it, too bad.  I am tired of you and your attitude.  Carry on and go bother somebody else!

[woods_walker]

Yes, you did state some opinions and when asked to discuss FACTS, you get mad and start making personal attacks. Is it not possible for you to have a discussion about your ideas without turning nasty when someone disagrees with you?

Apparently you missed the point of a "Discussion Forum". Someone makes a statement and others respond. It's too bad you don't have either the faith of conviction in your ideas OR the ability to engage in a conversation. The differences between people often produce better results than their similarities.

[Graybeard]

If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver.  Maybe SHOT 2020.

Tony

I'd really like to see this happen. Particularly if all I needed to change was my shellplate with my current 10mm dies. That would also justify a rimmed 10mm case for lighter loads like the.38/.357.
Something the .41 mag has always lacked is a commercially available lighter practice round.

[rognp]

Spudmeister,

Could you please explain how a rim on a rimless cartridge improves performance? This reminds me of the guy who wanted more chrome on his 'Vette "so it would go faster".

Did you ever stop to consider that the potential of the 10mm cartridge possibly will not and cannot be maximized in a revolver?  Just because you can get the square peg into that round hole does not mean it works good or even better than it does in it's own square hole.

The original expression was "if it dont go- CHROME IT! The expression is self explanatory.

Second part; there are revolvers rounds that produce uver 50,000 PSI SAAMI certified.  Actually 60,000. Thus if you wished to and say a Redhawk was your vehicle you coulld possibly reach 1500FPS with the 10mm and 180gr bullets. Thats increased potential. Next in line is that there are some semiautos that can group in the 1" at 50 yds standard, but that not with standing there aremore than a few revolvers that can shoot that well at 100 yds with proper sights and a tight nut on the handle. Verry, verry few semis can do that- some can but not in the same quantity. That is another potential boost for the 10mm.
  Ive never handled a 401 Powermag. They were few in number many years before Cooper birthed the 10mm. The 10mm is from a different era and for differentneeds. I personally wish the 10 had a smidgen more capacity and perhaps 10% more horsepressure. Id be delighted with a 10 mag semiauto. My hands are big enough to handle the increase in stock/grip size.

[woods_walker]

rognp,
The hoped-for point of my analogy was the concept of  believing you can do more or get more by changing the appearance of something.

The prior "discussion" offered up the idea of putting a rim on a 10mm case with no other changes, stuffing it in a smaller revolver than the .38 Special class, and believing one would somehow get more performance out of it.

On the other hand...

You can have everything you want - 10mm bore, Super Redhawk, 10mm case having more capacity and more horsepower, 1500 fps with a 180 grain- by reaming the 10mm Super Redhawk to 10mm Magnum. My Automag IV runs 180 gr. Hornady XTP's at over 1600 fps. My 10" Contender will run them scary fast. And every bit of the accuracy you would expect from the 10mm is still there in the 10 Mag. But you can't get there with the standard 10mm case because it doesn't have the powder volume.

The 10mm Magnum is the cartridge everybody wants when they say they want a 10mm to perform like a .41 Magnum. The problem is, there ARE big heavy bullets made for the .41, and the magnum case (and the guns) shoot them quite well. There is nothing in the .400" diameter that compares unless going to rifle bullets. Do that and it's yet another issue with overall length and barrel twist. 

You REALLY owe it to yourself to look into the 10mm Magnum. I'm baffled as to why so many 10mm Auto fans have never heard of it.