Tactical Edge RD-10 Review

[Pablo]

Wow. I believe you spent more on that that I did my RMW AR-15 10MM.

I don't know much about that design, but I do know most all such guns, mine included are very susceptible to no or bad crimp on 10mm ammo. Sig ammo (some batches) have no crimp and are actually belled. I started a thread about this several years ago. Don't use such about in a gun with a tight chamber, as it will hang. I have successfully run sig 10mm through my crimp die, just to shoot in my LW 10mm barrel in the 20L. Still fights with me in the 10mm AR, when I have never had any problem with home loads in that gun.

[Azrckcrawler]

This should be the last update. What has been going on w/timeline -

4-5-18  I was confident that the problem with this weapon system was the buffer weight.  I had it feeding everything I could throw at it but was experiencing repeated case head separation even with Sig 180gr FMJ.  I sent this email off to TE -

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chris Villarreal" <chris@azrockcrawler.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 7:45pm
To: bobby@tactical-edgearms.com
Subject: RE: Problems feeding from magazine on RD10

Robert,

I sent you some pictures before I went on vacation a few weeks back but never heard back.  While waiting I have been doing some research and am wondering if the buffer that is included with this rifle could be part of the issue. I could not find a single vendor who recomends anything less than a 9-11oz buffer for 45/10mm blowback pcc's. New Frontier says 10oz min, from their website -

It is advised that you use a 10 oz or heavier buffer.  Lighter buffers aren't safe to use in a blowback system with larger calibers such as the .45ACP and 10mm, and they may not feed some types of ammunition reliably without the added weight.

Quarter Circle 10 says 9-11oz and TNW uses a 9.8oz buffer (and much stiffer spring).  I pulled the buffer from my RD10 and it weighs 2.9oz.

4-6-18 The response I received -
Chris,

We will get that extractor shipped out today. The buffer weight that they are using is for a full length AR-15 buffer tube, we use the smaller Maxim Defense tube. I'm not sure why you're having issues, we sent you a video test firing that weapon with zero malfunction, bullet setback or dented cases...

Please confirm the address for the extractor.

Thanks,

Robert Snyder CEO
The Tactical Edge, LLC.
O: (877) 219-2220
C: (931) 278-7775


4-8-18 was asked again to confim my address for the replacement extractor I requested back on March 18th. 

4-11-18 I had received no reply about a solution to get a heavier buffer in the weapon. I emailed Bobby @ TE and asked him to call me.  He did that morning and in that conversation I discovered they only tried one type of ammo (180gr S&B) and he verbally confirmed that they had put a lighter buffer in the weapon to get it to feed (2.9oz).  This explained why my instances of case head separation had gone up.

4-11-18 Received shipping label so the mfg would have the rifle back in their hands for the 4th time.  I outlined my findings and asked for a solution to the buffer problem. If I were to fix it I would have to buy a different brace, swap the buffer tube out for a rifle length buffer tube, then install the heaviest tungsten buffer you can buy which would have been about $400 in parts. I am not sure of the legality of putting a rifle length buffer tube onto a pistol arm brace.

4-15-18 Weapon is on the way back to TE.  I also sent this email.

Robert,

Please read this as I intend it to be read - respectfully.

I getting ready to send the pistol back.  Got back into town late Friday night and while traveling I had a lot of time to reflect on our conversation.  A $2079 firearm should work out of the box, period. I was willing to pay that price assuming your company had engineered a safe and functional weapon system.  I feel I have been more than patient throughout this ordeal (Paid for the pistol on 1-26-18) and have spent a lot of my own time and money experimenting with ways to make this weapon system feed better only to discover that the brace/buffer system is fatally flawed for this particular weapon system due to it's short buffer tube which does not allow for a heavy enough buffer for a 10mm chambering. Blowback guns need heavy bolts to hold the round in the chamber long enough for pressures to drop to safe levels period.  Choosing an AR pattern limits the weight of the bolt due to space constraints so the buffer comes into play to supplement the bolts mass to keep the chamber closed. As a gun manufacturer, you should know this, yet you installed an even lighter buffer in my pistol the second time you had it in an effort to make it feed better. I have enclosed, in the case, all the rounds that experienced case head failure after I received the pistol back after that buffer change.  Essentially you tried to trade operator safety for reliability or maybe you didn't realize the implications of lightening up the buffer.  Neither scenario is comforting from my point of view.   

I want to make sure we are on the same page. You will be getting the pistol back a 3rd time.  I would urge you to replace the extractor then chamber single rounds by hand and test fire the weapon.  Use a mix of 180-220 gr loads with the light buffer you provided to see what the system does. For the 180 gr loads use something in the 1250fps velocity range and compare the length of the brass that does not rip apart. Case stretch should be non-existent if the bolt/buffer weight are properly sized.

From there I see two problems that need to be solved with this 10mm weapon system-

Problem #1 -   The pistol needs a weighted buffer that can prevent the bolt from moving backwards until the chamber pressure drops to safe levels. I have researched and provided you with the formulas required to determine a safe buffer weight based on various weight 10mm projectiles in my previous email. You did not respond to that (maybe check your spam folder if you did not see it). In this email I attached a pdf of the section I added (and a zip with the source excel file) which clearly shows why you may not see case head separation with light 10mm loads using lighter buffers. In order for your weapon system to safely fire a range of SAAMI spec 10mm loads you need a bolt/buffer combo in the 3.2lb range. I am not sure how you will get to this weight with the brace you selected for this weapon system but that is the first hurdle.

Problem #2 - The pistol needs to feed a variety of projectile shapes. Based on all my conversations, emails and testing over the last few weeks it appears that the NFA lower design has some issues. The magazine angle as well as height in relation to the chamber is not optimal for feeding the long straight walled 10mm cases and can allow projectiles to get rammed into the lower portion of the barrel. Other manufacturers have added a different feed ramp profile as well as modified the lower for a different magazine release tab that allows the glock magazine to sit higher than your design. This higher magazine position does facilitate better feeding if you hold the magazine up and pull back on the lower portion while firing in my RD10. I would strongly suggest you consult some of your peers to solve some of these issues.  Rudy @ Macon Armory spends a good deal of his time making other manufacturers PCC's functional and was more than happy to share solutions to the problems I am experiencing.  I am sure New frontier Armory would have suggestions for the bolt/buffer weight.

If the above problems cannot be resolved to my satisfaction or you run into technical hurdles we need to discuss a refund of my purchase price or an exchange for one of your other weapon systems of comparable value.  I would like resolution by the 1st or 2nd week of May.  After that I am in Alaska for a few weeks which ironically was where this weapon system was supposed to be utilized in a predator defense role. As a consumer I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a new weapon system to load and run off the shelf ammo in a reliable fashion, especially one with a $2079 dollar asking price. The extent of my involvement should be lube/clean weapon, load the magazine, insert into magwell, drop the slide and the weapon should be ready to function.

Chris Villarreal

4-19-18 I get an email from TE questioning the "mods" to make it feed.  They also noted I had a new barrel installed. I am told they are dissasembling the weapon that day and they will provide another video showing it running flawlessley like before. I replied that I had taken it to a local shop who advised me to polish a light feed ramp into the barrel to prevent the rounds from nosing into it. I also mentioned teh mods to the BCG.  Ironically all the mods aided in feeding.

5-14-18 Had not heard anything in about a month.  I emailed TE asking for an update.  Am advised that since I modified the weapon the warranty was now void (so I guess they did nothing with it over the last month and didn't bother to inform me of this). They would require another $300 to replace the BCG and barrel (even though it already has a new barrel in it), then would get it feeding again.  I responded I would be interested but questioned how they were going to get a heavier buffer in the gun. I also mentioned I did not want to sink anymore money into it if the buffer tube could not be lengthened so a heavier buffer could be utilized.

5-16-18 TE replied

Chris,
We have added a heavier buffer and are firing your gun today. The buffer that we have installed is a pistol caliber specific weight manufactured by Maxim Defense to be used in their buffer tube. I assure you, when you receive your RD-10 back, it will function as it should and you won't experience any case head separation or split cases. We have ordered in Sig 10mm, Lehigh Defense and Buffalo Bore ammo to test in your 10mm. I would advise that next time you experience any issues with a weapon not to take it upon yourself to modify the weapon to see if you can "fix" the issue, but rather contact the manufacturer and let them resolve the issue. Once the weapon is ready to go I will give you a call to go over your invoice.


For some reason the definition of insanity popped into my head.  The whole doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results.  True I had modified my weapon but it was only after TE had it in their possession 3 times. I replied -

I would ask why you didn't do this the 3 other times you had the system, i.e. when you built it, then the 1st and 2nd trip back but it's just not worth my time anymore. You can't get enough weight in the proprietary length buffer tube that Maxim uses period. So unless you use a longer tube it is not going to work. Those PDW braces work great on AR pistols but that is a completely different operating system.   Please pull the parts you replaced and send me back what I had.  It does not need to be reassembled, just bubble wrap the loose parts in the case, I am just going to scrap this firearm and cut my losses.  Let me know what the shipping cost is and I will get you paid tomorrow.

Chris

I am not willing to dump another $300+ shipping into this thing using the same buffer tube. So far radio silence.

So I am chalking this one up as an expensive learning experience. I can re-use the brace, trigger and sights in an AR pistol build I have had on the back burner for a while.  Should be able to sell the side charging upper, barrel and hand guard.  I can't pull myself to sell the lower to anyone (the magazine fit/angle is terrible) so we may see what happens when it encounters a 660gr projectile. 

[2AinVA]

This should be the last update. What has been going on w/timeline -

4-5-18  I was confident that the problem with this weapon system was the buffer weight.  I had it feeding everything I could throw at it but was experiencing repeated case head separation even with Sig 180gr FMJ.  I sent this email off to TE -

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chris Villarreal" <chris@azrockcrawler.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 7:45pm
To: bobby@tactical-edgearms.com
Subject: RE: Problems feeding from magazine on RD10

Robert,

I sent you some pictures before I went on vacation a few weeks back but never heard back.  While waiting I have been doing some research and am wondering if the buffer that is included with this rifle could be part of the issue. I could not find a single vendor who recomends anything less than a 9-11oz buffer for 45/10mm blowback pcc's. New Frontier says 10oz min, from their website -

It is advised that you use a 10 oz or heavier buffer.  Lighter buffers aren't safe to use in a blowback system with larger calibers such as the .45ACP and 10mm, and they may not feed some types of ammunition reliably without the added weight.

Quarter Circle 10 says 9-11oz and TNW uses a 9.8oz buffer (and much stiffer spring).  I pulled the buffer from my RD10 and it weighs 2.9oz.

4-6-18 The response I received -
Chris,

We will get that extractor shipped out today. The buffer weight that they are using is for a full length AR-15 buffer tube, we use the smaller Maxim Defense tube. I'm not sure why you're having issues, we sent you a video test firing that weapon with zero malfunction, bullet setback or dented cases...

Please confirm the address for the extractor.

Thanks,

Robert Snyder CEO
The Tactical Edge, LLC.
O: (877) 219-2220
C: (931) 278-7775


4-8-18 was asked again to confim my address for the replacement extractor I requested back on March 18th. 

4-11-18 I had received no reply about a solution to get a heavier buffer in the weapon. I emailed Bobby @ TE and asked him to call me.  He did that morning and in that conversation I discovered they only tried one type of ammo (180gr S&B) and he verbally confirmed that they had put a lighter buffer in the weapon to get it to feed (2.9oz).  This explained why my instances of case head separation had gone up.

4-11-18 Received shipping label so the mfg would have the rifle back in their hands for the 4th time.  I outlined my findings and asked for a solution to the buffer problem. If I were to fix it I would have to buy a different brace, swap the buffer tube out for a rifle length buffer tube, then install the heaviest tungsten buffer you can buy which would have been about $400 in parts. I am not sure of the legality of putting a rifle length buffer tube onto a pistol arm brace.

4-15-18 Weapon is on the way back to TE.  I also sent this email.

Robert,

Please read this as I intend it to be read - respectfully.

I getting ready to send the pistol back.  Got back into town late Friday night and while traveling I had a lot of time to reflect on our conversation.  A $2079 firearm should work out of the box, period. I was willing to pay that price assuming your company had engineered a safe and functional weapon system.  I feel I have been more than patient throughout this ordeal (Paid for the pistol on 1-26-18) and have spent a lot of my own time and money experimenting with ways to make this weapon system feed better only to discover that the brace/buffer system is fatally flawed for this particular weapon system due to it's short buffer tube which does not allow for a heavy enough buffer for a 10mm chambering. Blowback guns need heavy bolts to hold the round in the chamber long enough for pressures to drop to safe levels period.  Choosing an AR pattern limits the weight of the bolt due to space constraints so the buffer comes into play to supplement the bolts mass to keep the chamber closed. As a gun manufacturer, you should know this, yet you installed an even lighter buffer in my pistol the second time you had it in an effort to make it feed better. I have enclosed, in the case, all the rounds that experienced case head failure after I received the pistol back after that buffer change.  Essentially you tried to trade operator safety for reliability or maybe you didn't realize the implications of lightening up the buffer.  Neither scenario is comforting from my point of view.   

I want to make sure we are on the same page. You will be getting the pistol back a 3rd time.  I would urge you to replace the extractor then chamber single rounds by hand and test fire the weapon.  Use a mix of 180-220 gr loads with the light buffer you provided to see what the system does. For the 180 gr loads use something in the 1250fps velocity range and compare the length of the brass that does not rip apart. Case stretch should be non-existent if the bolt/buffer weight are properly sized.

From there I see two problems that need to be solved with this 10mm weapon system-

Problem #1 -   The pistol needs a weighted buffer that can prevent the bolt from moving backwards until the chamber pressure drops to safe levels. I have researched and provided you with the formulas required to determine a safe buffer weight based on various weight 10mm projectiles in my previous email. You did not respond to that (maybe check your spam folder if you did not see it). In this email I attached a pdf of the section I added (and a zip with the source excel file) which clearly shows why you may not see case head separation with light 10mm loads using lighter buffers. In order for your weapon system to safely fire a range of SAAMI spec 10mm loads you need a bolt/buffer combo in the 3.2lb range. I am not sure how you will get to this weight with the brace you selected for this weapon system but that is the first hurdle.

Problem #2 - The pistol needs to feed a variety of projectile shapes. Based on all my conversations, emails and testing over the last few weeks it appears that the NFA lower design has some issues. The magazine angle as well as height in relation to the chamber is not optimal for feeding the long straight walled 10mm cases and can allow projectiles to get rammed into the lower portion of the barrel. Other manufacturers have added a different feed ramp profile as well as modified the lower for a different magazine release tab that allows the glock magazine to sit higher than your design. This higher magazine position does facilitate better feeding if you hold the magazine up and pull back on the lower portion while firing in my RD10. I would strongly suggest you consult some of your peers to solve some of these issues.  Rudy @ Macon Armory spends a good deal of his time making other manufacturers PCC's functional and was more than happy to share solutions to the problems I am experiencing.  I am sure New frontier Armory would have suggestions for the bolt/buffer weight.

If the above problems cannot be resolved to my satisfaction or you run into technical hurdles we need to discuss a refund of my purchase price or an exchange for one of your other weapon systems of comparable value.  I would like resolution by the 1st or 2nd week of May.  After that I am in Alaska for a few weeks which ironically was where this weapon system was supposed to be utilized in a predator defense role. As a consumer I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a new weapon system to load and run off the shelf ammo in a reliable fashion, especially one with a $2079 dollar asking price. The extent of my involvement should be lube/clean weapon, load the magazine, insert into magwell, drop the slide and the weapon should be ready to function.

Chris Villarreal

4-19-18 I get an email from TE questioning the "mods" to make it feed.  They also noted I had a new barrel installed. I am told they are dissasembling the weapon that day and they will provide another video showing it running flawlessley like before. I replied that I had taken it to a local shop who advised me to polish a light feed ramp into the barrel to prevent the rounds from nosing into it. I also mentioned teh mods to the BCG.  Ironically all the mods aided in feeding.

5-14-18 Had not heard anything in about a month.  I emailed TE asking for an update.  Am advised that since I modified the weapon the warranty was now void (so I guess they did nothing with it over the last month and didn't bother to inform me of this). They would require another $300 to replace the BCG and barrel (even though it already has a new barrel in it), then would get it feeding again.  I responded I would be interested but questioned how they were going to get a heavier buffer in the gun. I also mentioned I did not want to sink anymore money into it if the buffer tube could not be lengthened so a heavier buffer could be utilized.

5-16-18 TE replied

Chris,
We have added a heavier buffer and are firing your gun today. The buffer that we have installed is a pistol caliber specific weight manufactured by Maxim Defense to be used in their buffer tube. I assure you, when you receive your RD-10 back, it will function as it should and you won't experience any case head separation or split cases. We have ordered in Sig 10mm, Lehigh Defense and Buffalo Bore ammo to test in your 10mm. I would advise that next time you experience any issues with a weapon not to take it upon yourself to modify the weapon to see if you can "fix" the issue, but rather contact the manufacturer and let them resolve the issue. Once the weapon is ready to go I will give you a call to go over your invoice.


For some reason the definition of insanity popped into my head.  The whole doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results.  True I had modified my weapon but it was only after TE had it in their possession 3 times. I replied -

I would ask why you didn't do this the 3 other times you had the system, i.e. when you built it, then the 1st and 2nd trip back but it's just not worth my time anymore. You can't get enough weight in the proprietary length buffer tube that Maxim uses period. So unless you use a longer tube it is not going to work. Those PDW braces work great on AR pistols but that is a completely different operating system.   Please pull the parts you replaced and send me back what I had.  It does not need to be reassembled, just bubble wrap the loose parts in the case, I am just going to scrap this firearm and cut my losses.  Let me know what the shipping cost is and I will get you paid tomorrow.

Chris

I am not willing to dump another $300+ shipping into this thing using the same buffer tube. So far radio silence.

So I am chalking this one up as an expensive learning experience. I can re-use the brace, trigger and sights in an AR pistol build I have had on the back burner for a while.  Should be able to sell the side charging upper, barrel and hand guard.  I can't pull myself to sell the lower to anyone (the magazine fit/angle is terrible) so we may see what happens when it encounters a 660gr projectile.

Holy blowback!  So glad you didn't get a kaboom!  Thanks for the detailed posts!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tulkas1989]

My experience with the rather pricey RD-10, which I bought a year before the cmmg banshee MK10 was produced.....

Now I own the CMMG Banshee 10mm MK10 and the Tactical Edge RD-10 10mm  pistol.   5 trips to the firing range and 500 rounds later, here are the observations (been using Sellier & Bennott and SigSauer 180 grain FMJ):
-The CMMG radial blowback system dramatically decreases the recoil and is very evident when compared to the RD-10.  RD-10 recoil is so prominent that after several hundred rounds, I had to wear my tactical glove to reduce numbness that was developing in my index finger
-The CMMG MK10 has fired over 500 rounds with no malfunctions and no cleaning to date.  The LRBHO  on the MK10 has not malfunctioned to date. 
-The RD-10's LRBHO started malfunctioning within the first 2 magazines.  Was never able to get the LRBHO to work reliably so I removed the mechanism. 
-Within the first 50 rounds, the RD-10 starting severing the empty casings in half, causing additional malfunctions when half of the casings were not extracted from the breach.  My gunsmith tested heavier buffers until we found one that stopped the severing of the empty casings ($75 buffer & $125 of labor).
-About 100 rounds into the RD-10, the bolt carrier assembly failed (extractor stripped).  Replaced it with a KAK Industries 40-S&W-10-MM-BCG ($145.00 later)
-RD-10 now fires reliably with the KAK bolt carrier assembly and heavier buffer.  All in for the RD-10 (purchase price/tax, shipping and replacement parts), over $2,150.00
-All in with the CMMG Banshee MK10:  $1,645.00 with taxes, local pickup at RifleGear.
-CMMG MK10 came with one 30 round mag, Glock compatible.  RD-10 came with two 15 round Glock mags.

Other observation:  RD-10 is noticeably heavier with the  balance point noticeably forward of the mag well.  RD10 leverages side charging handle while the MK10 uses classic AR style charging handle.  Overall the RD10 is much heavier than the Banshee MK10.

Complete advantage goes to the CMMG MK10.  With more knowledge of available components at the time, I could have built a more reliable 10mm AR pistol for half the cost of the RD10.

On the Banshee MK10, well worth the $$$ spent

[Pablo]

My experience with the rather pricey RD-10, which I bought a year before the cmmg banshee MK10 was produced.....

Now I own the CMMG Banshee 10mm MK10 and the Tactical Edge RD-10 10mm  pistol.   5 trips to the firing range and 500 rounds later, here are the observations (been using Sellier & Bennott and SigSauer 180 grain FMJ):
-The CMMG radial blowback system dramatically decreases the recoil and is very evident when compared to the RD-10.  RD-10 recoil is so prominent that after several hundred rounds, I had to wear my tactical glove to reduce numbness that was developing in my index finger
-The CMMG MK10 has fired over 500 rounds with no malfunctions and no cleaning to date.  The LRBHO  on the MK10 has not malfunctioned to date. 
-The RD-10's LRBHO started malfunctioning within the first 2 magazines.  Was never able to get the LRBHO to work reliably so I removed the mechanism. 
-Within the first 50 rounds, the RD-10 starting severing the empty casings in half, causing additional malfunctions when half of the casings were not extracted from the breach.  My gunsmith tested heavier buffers until we found one that stopped the severing of the empty casings ($75 buffer & $125 of labor).
-About 100 rounds into the RD-10, the bolt carrier assembly failed (extractor stripped).  Replaced it with a KAK Industries 40-S&W-10-MM-BCG ($145.00 later)
-RD-10 now fires reliably with the KAK bolt carrier assembly and heavier buffer.  All in for the RD-10 (purchase price/tax, shipping and replacement parts), over $2,150.00
-All in with the CMMG Banshee MK10:  $1,645.00 with taxes, local pickup at RifleGear.
-CMMG MK10 came with one 30 round mag, Glock compatible.  RD-10 came with two 15 round Glock mags.

Other observation:  RD-10 is noticeably heavier with the  balance point noticeably forward of the mag well.  RD10 leverages side charging handle while the MK10 uses classic AR style charging handle.  Overall the RD10 is much heavier than the Banshee MK10.

Complete advantage goes to the CMMG MK10.  With more knowledge of available components at the time, I could have built a more reliable 10mm AR pistol for half the cost of the RD10.

On the Banshee MK10, well worth the $$$ spent

Great first post. Thank you!