Thoughts on 460 rowland

[Texashogman]

so I know this cartridge has been covered here before, but it has always caught my eye to do a 1911 full size conversion for playing at the range and also a back up option for a woods carry gun.

what are your thoughts and actual hands on experience with the caliber???

what are the major "speed bumps" or downfalls to it?

besides energy downrange, what other "pluses" does it hold

if I do one, it will probably be on a fusion 4140 bar-stock frame as I have seen some people debate if it is a good caliber to put on a cast or forged steel frame, and I have heard issues can also be had with the SS frames/slides too

what about reloading, any issues that might arise with the reload process? what is the "best" powder for this "magnum" cartridge -- is there a "best" bullet weight or style to optimize its capabilities?

I saw on one website that they say to expect to loos 10% of your brass to case neck splits each time at the range... is that an accurate statement?

are there just the 2 options for companies selling conversion kits? are there known issues with 1 or the other brand of conversion?

I like to make informed decisions --- so i thank you for the hands on info you may have

[Azrckcrawler]

I love mine. My shooting buddy went out and bought a 1911 and the conversion kit after shooting mine for the first time. Using a Sig Scorpion as a base, so far I have about 600 rounds down range with the only issue being the rear sight coming loose. After a range session we usually send a mag or two of 45acp downrange, feels like shooting a 22 thanks to the compensator and heavy recoil spring.

I have reloaded using several powders using starting data from here: https://www.460rowland.com/load-data/ . You'll note the load ranges are incredibly narrow. I have started to shoot for accuracy rather than velocity so some of the loads I am using could go faster. 

True Blue - Had issues using the load data I found on the Rowland website.  Basically was tearing the brass in half leaving half in the chamber and ejecting the rim.  Downloaded a full grain with the same results.  Chrono showed the speeds were what they should have been. I tried 10.3gr down to 9.3gr over a 230gr Hornady XTP projectile, 1.245oal. Now using the True Blue for 10mm.

Longshot - Easy to get the speed but accuracy is elusive. 3-5" groupings at 12yds has been the norm.  Used everything from 230gr fmj, 200gr coated Xtreme's and Hornady 230/255gr XTP's.

Accurate #7 - Great accuracy out of my gun and milder recoil than longshot. Best loads so far -

13.5gr over a pulled 230gr FMJ (American Reloading) @ 1.245 netted a 5 shot 1.75" group at 12 yds, 1242fps/788ft/lb  avg

14.0gr over a 200gr Xtreme HP@ 1.245 netted another 5 shot 1.75" group at 12 yds, 1289fps/737ft/lb  avg

My brass has all been re-loadable save for the stuff destroyed in my True Blue loads.

[dred]

That's a bunch of questions.

I've been playing with in in my Mechtech since ~2012.  And, I have a junk drawer build which accidentally breaks a lot of the rules of thumb.  I built on a $100 (inc'l sights) unmarked slide from Armscor.  And, I built it onto an Armscor double stack frame.

I have about 600 rounds down range with the only issue being the rear sight coming loose.

Interesting here 'cause I experienced this rear sight loosing when I had it out last month.  I also had to modify my magazines to keep up with the digital slide.  As modified, they feed 10 rounds reliably - I have not tried with more than 10 rounds yet.  They were 14 round mags and I expect they are going to function perfectly with at least 12 rounds per.  The mags are definitely the reason they do NOT recommend building double stackers.

I'm not going to get into the cast v. forged or the Filipino origin issues that Johnny and Team Clark discuss.  I've had great success with my Rocks and I'm still shooting it like it may explode violently when I pull the trigger.

I am running it with a flat bottom firing pin stop, the Clark supplied recoil spring from hell, and I have a 23 pound mainspring to swap in when I retighten the rear sight before I take it out again.

Suppliers offering kits are Johnny himself and Team Clark.  There are additional barrel suppliers if you are prepared to put a kit together for yourself - e.g. you can buy a Wilson/Nowlin ramped barrel or a Para/Clark ramped barrel but you face zero chance of a drop-in.  I did notice Johnny has a newer, bigger compensator.  I went with the Clark bits 'cause Johnny's branding on the compensator doesn't come with royalty payments for piss poor shots like me.

Loading:  I have accumulated zero case neck splits.  I lucked into some Accurate #7 loads which performed great in the Mechtech, but it is strictly factory loads (Underwood) and 45ACP through Junk Drawer to date.  Before the rear sight let go Junk Drawer was putting holes where I was placing them so well I could have passed her off as a Rare Baer.

Accumulated knowledge/opinions:  I would definitely counsel you to heed the advice I ignored.  I do have a single stack frame in the works for if I can't win with the double stack'd version.  I've always run the doubles on my Mechtech, so I figured it was worth attempting and ... my single stack frames (except for the incomplete build) are all ramp cut (STI, DW & RIA).

Texashogman - I'd love to learn to find and dispatch feral pigs.  I'm on the Gulf Coast (Houston) but I can load up the camper and pack some 460 toys to evaluate in trade for some pig dispatching learn'n.  PM me if this interests you.

[Texashogman]

so if I'm correct, the "best" set-up for a 460R would be steel frame and slide, 9mm firing pin hole/45acp breach face slide (the heavier the better), fully supported rampped 460 chamber barrel, HD main spring, HD FP return spring, HD recoil spring, and comp??

what about the 45 super? I know it's not as much power as the 460R, but it seems that it may be slightly more accurate of a round than the 460R--- it would require a close setup but just not have to have the monster comp on the barrel and just a standard 45acp chamber IIAC

the 45 super seems to be on par with the 10mm hot loads, but the 460R can truly get to 44mag in some bullet weights--- but if I'm reading correctly the 460R may not be accurate at the upper speeds/levels

[dred]

but if I'm reading correctly the 460R may not be accurate at the upper speeds/levels

Actually ... the Underwood stuff was very accurate.  I'm just deciding to kit my Ransom for my doublestacks.  Presently, I can only run single stacks, so my observed opinion is the best I got.

I dunno from 45 super 'cause I'm scared of a round loaded that hot slipping into the wrong gun.

[asilcot10]

<what are the major "speed bumps" or downfalls to it?>

Biggest drawback I had when running the Clark conversion in a Sig TacOps was getting the recoil spring back into the gun. It never seemed as easy as it looked in the video. No problem regarding case life. I don't remember the exact load I was using but I remember it was a Hornady 185 gr bullet. (Maybe Longshot powder ?)

[Texashogman]

<what are the major "speed bumps" or downfalls to it?>

Biggest drawback I had when running the Clark conversion in a Sig TacOps was getting the recoil spring back into the gun. It never seemed as easy as it looked in the video. No problem regarding case life. I don't remember the exact load I was using but I remember it was a Hornady 185 gr bullet. (Maybe Longshot powder ?)

I bet that 185 was cookin' from the 460R

[asilcot10]

Well, I just went downstairs to check my loader's logbook to see what figures I had for that. I can't find my log. I am building a new loading bench and I have already started moving stuff out to the new building. Apparently that went in the first few loads. I will try to remember to check it tomorrow. Hopefully I ran those over the chronograph and have some actual results.

[asilcot10]

I finally found my log book but not much information there. I was trying to duplicate a Georgia Arms load using the Hornady 185 XTP bullet rated at 1400 FPS. I loaded the 185 XTP with 12gr working up to 13gr of Longshot with 1.245" OACL. No chrono readings recorded. The current Georgia Arms load for the 460 uses a Nosler 185 bullet rated at 1515 FPS.

[TonyRumore]

For you younger guys, the 460 Rowland was originally known as the 451 Detonics Magnum which came out in the early 80's.  It's basically a cut down 45 Win Mag case with the pressure run way past 45 ACP specs.  Though the case length between the two is a slightly different, the OAL ends up the same (with the same case capacity) due to the mag length restrictions.  So any way you cut it, the Rowland is a Detonics remake.

And one more thing, if you're getting 45 Win Mag velocities from a case with substantially less capacity, the only way you're getting there, is by running the pressure way higher than the Win Mag, which is already pretty salty at 40,000psi.  To get away with it, a big compensator is added to stall the barrel and hold the action closed longer.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just pointing out what's going here.

Tony

[my_old_glock]

I have some experience with 45 Super in a Glock 21. It isn't 460 Rowland, but it is higher pressure than 45 ACP. I did not like it because it beat the crap out of my gun.

If you get a gun specifically engineered to handle the 460 Rowland, you shouldn't have a problem. There is nothing wrong with the cartridge in the right gun, and if you want one get one.

Personally, I see no use for it. I doubt anyone would use it for competition or urban self-defense, so you don't need a gun that uses a large capacity magazine. Since the 460 Rowland duplicates the 44 Magnum, you might as well get a 44 Magnum - unless you specifically want a semi-auto handgun.




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[Mike D]

I have a Rowland built on a G21 longslide. The only drawback I've seen to it so far is not having a suppressor that is rated for it. [emoji12]

I'm about to send it off and have the slide milled for an RMR to use it for hunting.


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[Justluke]

I have had the 460 conversion on my Springfield 1911 in stainless steal for about seven or eight years now I broke a bunch of a little  I have had the 460 conversion on my Springfield 1911 in stainless steal for about seven or eight years now I broke a bunch of the little Mim parts over the years but I've shot it quite a bit in all in all everything is held up very well.  Off the top of my head parts that broke were the thumb safety, hammer. That was just a good excuse to replace them with better parts. Our use the gun while hiking at Yellowstone and felt pretty secure With it.👍

[Mike D]

I have a Rowland built on a G21 longslide. The only drawback I've seen to it so far is not having a suppressor that is rated for it. [emoji12]

I'm about to send it off and have the slide milled for an RMR to use it for hunting.


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Well the Suppressor problem has been solved and the RMR installed.

Haven't been able to shoot it yet though.




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[Spudmeister]

Don't have any personal history with the Rowland but some with the 45 Super.  If the gun is intended for range or general field use then run where your heart and wallet leads you.  But (along with the 45 Super) it quickly becomes a very custom one off gun.  Comes from profoundly exceeding design criteria for the host weapon.  Overcoming all that is, among other things, a lot of fun yet I have read a lot of reliability problems.  Not a big deal for most applications.  But if you are carrying the gun for protection against big and toothy things... a persnickety gun is the very last thing you need. 

While the performance specs of the Rowland are simply outstanding, a 6" Glock aftermarket barrel with Underwood 220gr hard cast bullets is not far behind and suffers none of the reliability issues of the Rowland.  Ammo is available and practice is reasonable.  I know many Rowland conversions run quite well.  Some do not.  Of course my preference against big and toothy is to be somewhere else.  Second choice is a 12 ga.  Neither the Rowland or 10mm are desirable but have the great advantage of always being with you.