230 grain .45 vs 200 grain 10mm penetration and for bears/ hogs

[blaster]

when a bullet hits a skull, the angle of the shot determines what will happen. I have slaughtered hogs using a .22 l.r. between the eyes and have seen a .357 mag.not penetrate from what looked like almost the same angle. when hog hunting, I usually try for the ear-hole shot as the bone there is not as thick and angled. of course a charging animal won't give you that shot but an open mouth gives good access to the spinal cord on a bear or lion. hogs don't try to bite you so you won't get that shot. as said above, arrows have killed plenty of bear, hogs and other large dangerous game. keep in mind that an arrow (or knife) will also penetrate a Kevlar vest that will stop a large bullet. an arrow works different than a bullet. I have also cleaned several large boars that had buck shot imbedded in the gristle shield and the hog was fine. you have to be close when using buckshot.  also found arrow heads stuck in the vertebrae with no ill effects to the hog. hogs and bears are tough animals but they are not invincible. you just have to hit them in the right spot.

[RJM52]

As was stated above...there is no free ride when it comes to penetration...to equal or even just come close to what a 10mm will do you are going to have to increase the recoil of the .45 ACP.

Besides bullet shape and construction one must also consider sectional density. The 200 grain 10mm bullet has the same SD as a 210 grain .41 bullet or a 225 grain .44 bullet.  For a .45 to have the same SD it takes about 255 grains... 

So if you want the same SD as a 10mm "bear load" try the Buffalo Bore 255 Outdoorsman. It is running in the mid-900s. Won't have the power of the 10mm at 2-300 fps faster but should get the job done...

Bob

[Texashogman]

how bout the thunder 50 for ultimate penetration: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/10/50-bmg-single-shot-handgun/

[sqlbullet]

how bout the thunder 50 for ultimate penetration: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/10/50-bmg-single-shot-handgun/

The impressive thing about the video in that link is that the guy shoots it twice, and actually hits something the second time.

For years I didn't own a 44 mag.  When I would shoot my friends it was always the same.  Hit, miss, pause, pause, hit, hit ,hit, hit.  That second shot I always jerked, then I calmed down and took my time.

I finally bought a redhawk in 44 mag, just to I could work on that issue.

[Patriot]

My bud stepped up with a 44 mag and took a frontal head shot from maybe as much as 5 ft. Nothing happened. He followed up with 4 more shots and then the hog got mad and left with dogs hanging off of him. We trailed it about half a mile when the henty showed up with the truck. The 270 came out and the party was over. The 3 of us couldn't load the hog- too heavy so his ranch hands came back the next day and took it out in pieces. The 44 mag never penetrated the bone. The gun was loaded with Hornady 240gr HPs.

Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described. 
I will however declare:  I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!   

Had to be ammunition failure. Bad batch of ammo. Or the shooter has terrible aim. Or the story is a fabrication.

I've shot HUGE hogs with 10mm. One shot to the skull has dropped many a huge hog on my uncles ranch in Texas. And .44 is twice as powerful as 10mm.

[my_old_glock]

I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well.  Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtAue-USGOc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_4A2SGsySI

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125242/Kilo-pit-bull-dog-survives-shot-head-save-owner-Justin-Becker-home-invasion.html

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pit-Bull-Shooting-Survival-Commercial-Township-Cumberland-County-New-Jersey-Dog--379049161.html



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[my_old_glock]

Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described. 
I will however declare:  I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cViXU8eXU94


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[Rojo27]

I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well.  Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtAue-USGOc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_4A2SGsySI

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125242/Kilo-pit-bull-dog-survives-shot-head-save-owner-Justin-Becker-home-invasion.html

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pit-Bull-Shooting-Survival-Commercial-Township-Cumberland-County-New-Jersey-Dog--379049161.html

Thanks for the interesting news links. 

Here are some stories of people surviving head shots (even some from rifles) and one about a guy killing a 9 foot Grizzly with a 45... 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/17/history-flashback-soldier-shot-head-survived-decades/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2402160/Alyssa-Dudley-21-shot-twice-head-ex-boyfriend-SURVIVED.html
https://mindhacks.com/2012/06/09/a-shot-to-the-head/
We all know the story about Gabrielle Giffords surviving a shooting to the head from 9mm nearly point blank. 
Numerous documented occurrences of people surviving suicide attempts after shooting themselves in the head with firearms up to 357 mag.

I've still dispatched several wild, feral hogs with 45acp out of a 1911. 

[Rojo27]

Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described. 
I will however declare:  I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cViXU8eXU94
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Cool - Here is one of a couple of 44 mag hog kills:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IScbfcrQKu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmzmouDZlvA

Here is a 44 mag used By Robert Peterson to kill a 14 foot Polar Bear. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVW8MpaAwK0

[rognp]

In my career as a veterinarian, Ive seen many shot animals. One case a doberman shot by an officer on a drug raid. Dog was shot in the elbo witha 45 ACP hollow point. It did not exit the elbo. A rottweiler shot in the head from a few feet with a 12ga birdshot load. The angle on entrance suggested direct 90* to skull. Shotload deflected and partially exited at approximately 60*+. Dog survived. A lab shot in the head with a Muzzy type broadhead, this more easily deflected. Again dog survived. There are more variables than just bad load , bad bullet etc.

[Rojo27]

This recent thread expanded to include 357 mag, 44 mag & 454 Casull.....

Thought about that when reading this story concerning man using 44 magnum handgun on attacking Grizzly to save his adult son (10mm also gets mentioned).

Situation turned out very well all things considered.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/11/dean-weingarten/father-uses-taurus-44-magnum-revolver-shoot-grizzly-bear-attacking-son/

[RJM52]

..and some moron told this guy that modern DA revolvers are not safe with a round under the hammer...cutting his ammo supply by 20%...

[sqlbullet]

..and some moron told this guy that modern DA revolvers are not safe with a round under the hammer...cutting his ammo supply by 20%...

In fairness, the article says he was taught that 50 years ago.  Probably by his grandfather or great uncle who handed him a not so modern revolver that did need to be carried with the hammer over the empty chamber.

So, the moron was the guy who didn't learn the capabilities of his personal defense gun before venturing into an area where he needed to defend his person.

[Forrest]

Be very careful about going to a 255 grain bullet in a G21. You're going to have to change the barrel and be very precise about your business of loading cartridges. I have seen several KB's with the 21 and lead bullets.

I'm not sure what the end game is here switching from the 10mm to the .45. Are you tired of chasing brass? Are you tired of recoil? You're stepping backwards decidedly by going to the .45. You're losing capacity, power, range, and coolness. I don't feel like there is anything to be gained by using the .45 ACP. If it were me I'd just buy a .40 S&W conversion barrel of decent quality and call it a day. 

[Soulezoo]

I will second the looksie into Lehigh defense ammo. I load their 140 gr penetrator to 1450 fps (G20sf w/6" storm lake bbl).

That load will go through level IIIa body armor, 4" bulletproof glass, and about 30" of ballistic gel. So, it it's penetration you want,  there's your projectile.

See some of the you tube videos testing this bullet for reference.