Range, how far is too far with a pistol?

[Ridgerunner665]

Since I have what might be the deer of my lifetime in my sights, so to speak, I've decided to pull out all the stops...

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/40-190gr-handgun-solid

Should drive through a deer from any angle, all of the benefits and none of the headaches of cast bullets.

[Ridgerunner665]

Don't get many chances at a deer like this without paying big money for it...

I don't want to take any chances...

[Ridgerunner665]

New picture...

[TonyRumore]

My longest shot (250 pound hog) was at 85 yards with an iron-sighted 8.5" 41 Auto Mag.  The gun was hand-held and I was standing.  It was also cold and raining, but I still managed to shoot him right between the eyes with the first shot.  I imagine a 10mm would have worked as well, but I personally would need a long sight radius to pull it off at that distance.

Tony

[G_man]

At what ranges, and conditions, do you routinely practice??? Beyond that is too far.

With my single actions I sight in at 50 yards and shoot out to 75. Beyond 75 is too far for me, with those handguns. We'll see what happens when I get my grock 40.....

Please elaborate for me on the problems with cast bullets. They're all I use in my hunting handguns with excellent results, both internally and externally. All copper bullets, in my limited experience with rifles, have their own set of problems.

[FN in MT]

 Deer are not tough to kill. I've killed a mess of them with handguns over the years. With three mature elk* and a few antelope thrown in as well.     (* Taken with a .454 Casull)

I keep shots to what I'd call old time, traditional bow range if possible. Meaning 25 yds or less. I'd keep shots to whatever distance YOU can keep all shots CONSISTENTLY into an 8 or 10 inch plate.
If that's 25 yds....Then that's your max range.

As far as WHERE....the heart/lung area is big and a good hit to either organ is a sure killer. Stay away from head shots as it's too risky. I've seen elk and deer with jaws shot off, etc. A cruel, lingering death that no animal deserves.

Bullets.  I have zero input as to the 10mm. Closest to the ten would be the few deer and an antelope I took with a 6" .41 magnum and 220 gr, Keith SWC slugs.  The vast majority of my deer were killed with the .44 Spcl/.44 Mag , again, with Keith style SWC's.

[Forrest]

Since all the finer aspects of ballistics and energy have been discussed, let's consider something else. You mentioned that you'd like to kill the deer. Quickly and humanely. You're just not certain what maximum range you can do that at.

Personally, I don't care about the one shot kill. I believe that more people have lost game to the failed one shot kill than anything else. It's spectacular, romantic, and makes for good stories. It's also a great way to starve to death and lose game. You're essentially programming yourself for an all or nothing attempt without the consideration of anything but perfection. Train for the screw ups, failures, malfunctions and aww shucks. So let's trash that idea and let's examine the buckshot shotgunner tactic of shoot, close distance and shoot again.

Go with the idea that you are going to put lead on target until the deer stops, falls down and remains down all the while closing the distance and improving the accuracy percentage, energy on target and good vantage point of the target. I cannot stress enough that you must never move into an area where you lose your sight line on wounded game. Move laterally as you advance or stand and deliver from fifty yards rather than moving to thirty yards through a ravine or creek where you lose sight for any length of time. Be prepared and committed to multiple hits. Three or maybe even five hits.

How rapidly you can deliver the second and third shot at given range should dictate your maximum range of engagement. So how do you figure this out? It's pretty easy if you have a shot timer, but most of us aren't competitive shooters and we don't have this equipment. You can download an app for your phone. Set the split time goal time at one second. See how many hits you can get on a paper plate at a given distance with 1 second between shots. Increase the distance from ten yards on out to wherever you can no longer get two shots off one second apart for successful hits. Now you really need to practice getting successful hits off at a half second between shots with the ideal being around a quarter of a second shot to shot splits.  Assuming that a deer can run 40 mph, that works out to nearly 60 ft/sec, so the more rapidly you can make your second hit the less distance the deer will have traveled. Obviously, a wounded deer is not likely traveling at full speed, but if we can prepare for the worst, we can expect the best from ourselves.

Once you have found your maximum range, place paper plates five feet, ten and fifteen feet to the right and left of your target. Practice shooting the first target and then the second shot and third shots on the various targets to the right or left to simulate a wounded deer going away laterally. You can also simulate this with the side plates further away or closer. The idea is to get you used to the fact that the deer may not be in the position of the first shot by the time you are recovered from the recoil and ready for your follow-up shot or that your follow-up shot may be delayed/deferred due to brush or trees being in the way.  I'm a big fan of walking around randomly and then coming to a pause as if I had seen a deer or heard something and raising the gun and firing from a spot not exactly square to the targets, maybe on uneven ground, or from a half turned about position. Don't favor one side or the other. We can't choose that on the hunt. I like to shoot a shot or two and then rapidly close shoot again, and then close some more for any more shots.

Hopefully this has gotten you thinking more like a committed killer of game and the preparedness to make the kill and see it through. I think you've got enough gun. Time to get to know it and yourself a little better. When you get to the point where the shot sequence is almost automatic, you will be ready.

[Harleycolt]

Now this isn't hunting but watched a video today of a 500 yard shot, not once but 3 in a row on a steel ram using a custom built 6" barrel 10mm! This was performed by a company called Accuracy X with a 180gr bullet at 1300fps. Don't know how much energy it would have at that range but you could clearly hear the hits!

[rognp]

The only reason I could think of for shooting at game at 500 yds with a pistol cartridge would be the follow up on Forrest's thread reply above. According to JBM Ballistics a 200gr XTP fired at 1300 FPS would rach 500 yds at 770 FPS and 263 FP KE. Thats considerably less than most 9mm defense loads. Thats less than an Underwood 380 +P load. Finishing shots warranted , first shot

[spaniel]

Since all the finer aspects of ballistics and energy have been discussed, let's consider something else. You mentioned that you'd like to kill the deer. Quickly and humanely. You're just not certain what maximum range you can do that at.

Personally, I don't care about the one shot kill. I believe that more people have lost game to the failed one shot kill than anything else. It's spectacular, romantic, and makes for good stories. It's also a great way to starve to death and lose game. You're essentially programming yourself for an all or nothing attempt without the consideration of anything but perfection. Train for the screw ups, failures, malfunctions and aww shucks. So let's trash that idea and let's examine the buckshot shotgunner tactic of shoot, close distance and shoot again.

Go with the idea that you are going to put lead on target until the deer stops, falls down and remains down all the while closing the distance and improving the accuracy percentage, energy on target and good vantage point of the target. I cannot stress enough that you must never move into an area where you lose your sight line on wounded game. Move laterally as you advance or stand and deliver from fifty yards rather than moving to thirty yards through a ravine or creek where you lose sight for any length of time. Be prepared and committed to multiple hits. Three or maybe even five hits.

How rapidly you can deliver the second and third shot at given range should dictate your maximum range of engagement. So how do you figure this out? It's pretty easy if you have a shot timer, but most of us aren't competitive shooters and we don't have this equipment. You can download an app for your phone. Set the split time goal time at one second. See how many hits you can get on a paper plate at a given distance with 1 second between shots. Increase the distance from ten yards on out to wherever you can no longer get two shots off one second apart for successful hits. Now you really need to practice getting successful hits off at a half second between shots with the ideal being around a quarter of a second shot to shot splits.  Assuming that a deer can run 40 mph, that works out to nearly 60 ft/sec, so the more rapidly you can make your second hit the less distance the deer will have traveled. Obviously, a wounded deer is not likely traveling at full speed, but if we can prepare for the worst, we can expect the best from ourselves.

Once you have found your maximum range, place paper plates five feet, ten and fifteen feet to the right and left of your target. Practice shooting the first target and then the second shot and third shots on the various targets to the right or left to simulate a wounded deer going away laterally. You can also simulate this with the side plates further away or closer. The idea is to get you used to the fact that the deer may not be in the position of the first shot by the time you are recovered from the recoil and ready for your follow-up shot or that your follow-up shot may be delayed/deferred due to brush or trees being in the way.  I'm a big fan of walking around randomly and then coming to a pause as if I had seen a deer or heard something and raising the gun and firing from a spot not exactly square to the targets, maybe on uneven ground, or from a half turned about position. Don't favor one side or the other. We can't choose that on the hunt. I like to shoot a shot or two and then rapidly close shoot again, and then close some more for any more shots.

Hopefully this has gotten you thinking more like a committed killer of game and the preparedness to make the kill and see it through. I think you've got enough gun. Time to get to know it and yourself a little better. When you get to the point where the shot sequence is almost automatic, you will be ready.

I'm in complete disagreement.  If my first shot isn't good the animal will be moving and subsequent shots will only be worse.  Of course if the animal is not down immediately I will shoot again, but counting on those subsequent shots and in any way compromising on the adequacy of the first is foolhardy.

I've killed a lot of deer, I lost count years ago around 150 so it must be in the 200 range now.  I can count on one hand the number I missed on the first shot but took down with a subsequent shot and still pick my nose.

I also don't hunt with or hunt with anyone using buckshot as my experience shows it to me unethical, and I've never seen anyone in the US starve from missing a deer.  Seems kind of dramatic to me.

[Forrest]

I submit that your follow-up shot is not reliable because it is mainly unpracticed. You bank on making the first shot a killer or a clean miss. Maybe the first shot isn't a miss but a bad hit. Another hit increases my chance of recovery. Once the first shot is fired I am all in to make the kill and recover the game. I've tracked deer that have slipped away because the accurate first shot failed. If I call a miss on the first shot, I don't take a second. I agree with you there. I'm fairly certain I have a good handle on handgun marksmanship at distance. Mainly people fail to practice with sufficient deliberation and they only do the things that make them feel good. Where I grew up hunting, the shotgun with buckshot was the only legal option. When I was able to hunt with other methods I did so and I have carried the lessons learned from my youth to adulthood.

Jeremiah Johnson...early in the movie...starving pilgrim that couldn't shoot straight.

[Mike D]

I'm interested to see how you are getting 1300fps out of an XTP 200 grain in a handgun. With my 6-1/2" barrel on mine the best I've been able to safely achieve is about 1225.

I killed a doe last year at 30 yards with it. She ran less than 25 yards with a shot through the lungs.


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[Forrest]

I'm interested to see how you are getting 1300fps out of an XTP 200 grain in a handgun. With my 6-1/2" barrel on mine the best I've been able to safely achieve is about 1225.

I killed a doe last year at 30 yards with it. She ran less than 25 yards with a shot through the lungs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I'm going with crossed wires...
One poster said 180 grain clearly and the other said 200 grain...I'd personally like to see 1300 on a 200 grainer. I'm thinking that's a handful...I've approached 1400 with a 180 from a 5" and it's a handful with AA#9. I would like to know what powder for sure.

[Ridgerunner665]

I'm interested to see how you are getting 1300fps out of an XTP 200 grain in a handgun. With my 6-1/2" barrel on mine the best I've been able to safely achieve is about 1225.

I killed a doe last year at 30 yards with it. She ran less than 25 yards with a shot through the lungs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

7 inch KKM barrel
12.8 grains of Accurate #9 powder
CCI 350 primer
200 grain Nosler JHP

1,306 fps

The same can be done with the XTP at 12.6 grains of Accurate #9, the XTP is a longer bullet than the Nosler, by about .010".

These loads in a stock Glock 20 generate 1,225 fps... My pistol is a Glock 40, with the longer, tighter KKM barrel.

[Ridgerunner665]

12.6 grains of AA9 was a little light under the Nosler...

Went to 12.8 grains with the CCI 350, a little bit of a squeeze to get it in there, but it works without crushing the nose of the bullet.

1,306 fps according to my new chrono (using IR lights) which was double checked against a friend's Labradar...the Labradar came up with 1,307 fps.

The 5 shots and the average are at 15 feet from the muzzle.