Do you feel in ammo, it is WHEN, not IF, you will be bitten?

[Intercooler]

     I have already publicly stated I couldn't be a ammo MFG  have had a couple of different rounds suffer some odd happenings. Most I ever got was some powder to the face but if you shoot enough I think it's when, not if.

     Many say it is Boutique that worries most but I have also had big factory ammo fail as well. Handloaders don't get off the hook either because I have seen first hand issues there. I just feel I couldn't tell anyone that if they shoot X bran of ammo they will never experience an issue.

[sqlbullet]

The only time I worry is when I am pursuing MAX 10mm velocities.  In those cases it doesn't matter if it is handloads, major mfg or boutique mfg.  Those loads are on the limits of what 10mm brass can handle and beyond the limits for some gun platforms (looking at you Delta Elite).

I don't worry in my Glock 29 or my Witness.  But my Para 16-40 I think lead a previous life as an IPSC gun before I bought it.  While the barrel is still good, the chamber has been modified for feeding I am pretty sure.  It delivers a nice glock smile with MAX loads.

This weekend I was testing some 205 grain WFN hard cast with Longshot.  The top end load, (I am at work and don't recall the load) produced smiles such that the brass will be thrown out.

In general I don't feel the need to make 1250 fps with a 210 grain bullet though.  I can't see a real difference between that load's performance and the same bullet at 1190 fps, and I can make 1190 fps with no pressure signs at all, and often with quite a bit less powder.

I guess what I am saying is I have grown quite comfortable with ammo that lives up to 96% of the 10mm's max performance, and don't expect to spend much time pursuing that last 4%.  I exclusively handload and am rather meticulous about checking charges.  So, no, I don't expect to be bitten by a head rupture of catastrophic failure.

[The_Shadow]

I most always shoot my handloads and have done so for 33+ years.  As you can tell I liked the challenge of the commercial pull downs, this helps dispell the myths that it is not anything really special, except pushing the boundarys in most instances.  Some of the major commercial ammo maker may use what is considered "non canister" powders, where as the boutique loaders may use the off the shelf canister grade stuff.  Commercial manufactures do not check each and every component like some handloaders do.  (Flash holes NOT being drilled, damaged components, etc. with eyes on quality control) the stuff runs thru the machines like clock work, so therefore things can go out the door.  Liabilities for ammo, do rest with the manufacture and the end product user...it all comes down to money in the end.

A balance of particular componets and load development that fits the SAAMI specifications for given pressure MAP.  The other thing as mentioned, is the guns themselves, not all are created equal (chamber support, recoil systems, barrels, etc.), people can set them up differently than the factory original which all serve to accomedate various degrees of impulse with the chosen ammunition.

While there are some velocity junkies that want the fastest velocity rounds, I actually look for a balance of 100% reliability performance vs, accuracy and velocity for a particular application, like hunting, target and self defense.  Handloading was to provide all of this and more with the satisfaction of "Doing It Yourself"!  Not to mention cost savings over the years building custom ammo at target prices or less! 

[REDLINE]

The only time I worry is when I am pursuing MAX 10mm velocities.  In those cases it doesn't matter if it is handloads, major mfg or boutique mfg.  Those loads are on the limits of what 10mm brass can handle and beyond the limits for some gun platforms (looking at you Delta Elite).

And of course the brass case itself is only capable of handling well under 5000 PSI.  The only reason issues arrise are chambers that don't support the whole case, at least to the rim.  10mm proof loads are suggested by SAAMI to be at a minimum average of 50,500 PSI, up to a maximum average of 54,000 PSI.  Clearly Glock doesn't care, and Colt cares even less, faaaaaaaaaaaaar less!

The issue of 10mm loads blowing out their brass cases in some platforms at 37,500 PSI and HIGHER has nothing to do with the brass case.  Rather it has everything to do with 10mm semi-auto firearm manufacturers manufacturing barrels with chambers that do not fully support the cartridge case, period.

Any 10mm platform, if based on SAAMI guidelines, should handle SAAMI's listed Maximum Probable Sample Mean of 40,500 PSI for the 10mm Auto without any problem whatsoever.  If anyone chooses to use a platform that can't handle that without a case blowout or worse, that's up to them.  But in no way is it a fault of the 10mm brass case in relation to SAAMI specifications.

Jump to T/C Contenders and Revolvers and all of a sudden +40,000 PSI is no issue whatsoever.  Who'ld have thunk it?

Sorry for the rant.....firearm manufacturers are just getting to me.   Seems Kimber is the only one who cares in a mass produced semi-auto platform.  Kudos to them.   

[REDLINE]

As you can tell I liked the challenge of the commercial pull downs, this helps dispell the myths that it is not anything really special, except pushing the boundarys in most instances.

Well said, and great work that you did there!

[sqlbullet]

Without disagreeing with you Redline, there is another factor at play here.

Kimber makes 1911's for guys who want 1911's and are willing to live with whatever that means.  I have had good luck feeding my 1911 10mm, but it is more finicky than my EAA's or my Glock, both of which eat anything.  Kimber can tighten up the chamber on their gun and know it won't cost them customers if there is the occasional gun that won't digest a certain type of ammo.

Glock on the other hand has built it's empire on "Glock Perfection" of simplicity and reliability.  They have to compromise the opposite direction from Kimber.  They make the chamber oversize and risk the occasional Ka-Boom in order to achieve that reliability.  Guys who move to after market barrels for their Glocks occasionally decreased reliability with certain makes or loads as a result of the tight chamber.

There is no free lunch.  At least not that I have found.

[EdMc]

And I got smileys with a LW barrel with loads that didn't in a stock Glock barrel.

I may buy a Kimber yet. 

[Intercooler]

  I have read a few posts here recently with people having issues with Kevin's 9 and 10mm ammos. It's been real hard to figure out what is happening although blame the ammo is the first course.

[REDLINE]

Without disagreeing with you Redline, there is another factor at play here.

Kimber makes 1911's for guys who want 1911's and are willing to live with whatever that means.  I have had good luck feeding my 1911 10mm, but it is more finicky than my EAA's or my Glock, both of which eat anything.  Kimber can tighten up the chamber on their gun and know it won't cost them customers if there is the occasional gun that won't digest a certain type of ammo.

Glock on the other hand has built it's empire on "Glock Perfection" of simplicity and reliability.  They have to compromise the opposite direction from Kimber.  They make the chamber oversize and risk the occasional Ka-Boom in order to achieve that reliability.  Guys who move to after market barrels for their Glocks occasionally decreased reliability with certain makes or loads as a result of the tight chamber.

There is no free lunch.  At least not that I have found.

Agreed in general.

But I wouldn't jump the gun on what the two Kimber 10mms will or won't feed reliably.  Who's to say?  Certainly isn't anyone around here speaking up on them regarding what issues they may or may not have.  The only feedback we have on any Kimber that I'm aware of is the barrel pic intercooler posted and the ones I posted for someone else.

Also, I feel it's important to differentiate between a loose chamber and lack of some amount of actual case support.  That's a big difference in my mind.  We don't know if Kimber 10mm barrel chambers are especially tight or loose or somewhere in between, but only that is would appear their barrels support more of the case than any other manufacturer's barrel does.

We also know that 1911s in general probably require more tweaking toward feed reliability than any other semi-auto pistol platform overall, when they need it.  Still, there are sure a lot of folks out there that love'em and are willing to tweak.  That's just part of the devil in the details regarding 1911s in my mind.

Not trying to make a stink here.  I just think some of the details/semantics are worth noting.  Your hunch could be 100% correct specifically regarding the Kimber 10mm platforms, but then again it may not be.  I'm not seeing enough information to make that judgement one way or the other yet.

I'ld also add that we don't know if Glock 10mm reliability would suffer with more case support (not looseness or tightness of the chamber overall, but actual support or lack thereof) or not.  We only know what they settled on.  Not what they necessarily all tested before going with what they settled on.  And true, some aftermarket barrels for the Glocks give some owners feed issues, but it's also true that some don't while having much better case support.

[REDLINE]

And I got smileys with a LW barrel with loads that didn't in a stock Glock barrel.

That's the thing about LW barrels and why I'll never touch one.  One guy gets a sweet one that handles any halfway reasonable load with ease, and reliably.  Then the next guy gets one that should have never left the factory.  Now they've gone to their "new and improved" design with less case support, and time will tell if there's any consistency with them either.  Then there are the ones people get that have a chamber so tight they have to send it back to the factory to get it rereamed.  They only reason they are as popular as they are is their relatively low cost compared to others.  But in my mind this is a classic example of getting what you pay for, even though some people get lucky and get one that's worth owning.

I may buy a Kimber yet. 

If you do I expect you'll get all questions on everything Kimber regarding 10mm on this forum.  Kimber doesn't seem to get much love around here.  The question is whether it's deserved or not.  Sure wish someone in the position to do so would take the plunge and fill in the rest of us.  I'm not suggesting what anyone should or shouldn't do, just that it would be cool if they did.   It's not like Kimber just came out with  these 10mm models.  They've existed for quite a few years already.

[EdMc]

I can only comment on the LW I have.....it's chamber is tight, and  they leave about the same amount of casing unsupported as a std Glock barrel. Since I bought it used I can't send it back. The taper is far less than a Glock chamber and the bore slightly smaller. I need to take the time and look closer at the Smith 1006 and std Delta chambers to compare.

The Colt has the smallest bore.....with one load, that did cause smileys in the Delta, it ran about 60 fps + faster than the same load in the std barrel Glock. Avg of 1198 in the G20 and 1262 in the Delta. This was only one small sample so take it as you will.

Sometime back I asked in a post about Kimbers and several replied with positive comments about them. Whether they reload their own or have used any of the UW stronger loads I have no idea. My attempts at loading N-350 was the result of a magazine article that used a Kimber Target II as the test piece.Well below the max load of the article I forced smileys in the G20, but at an even lower loading at least broke 1200 fps with a 180 gr bullet in my G20.

So.....perhaps I need to spend more time with the Smith and a chrono? I do like 1911s, maybe a Kimber is in the future.     

[sqlbullet]

Agreed in general.

But I wouldn't jump the gun on what the two Kimber 10mms will or won't feed reliably.  Who's to say?  Certainly isn't anyone around here speaking up on them regarding what issues they may or may not have.  The only feedback we have on any Kimber that I'm aware of is the barrel pic intercooler posted and the ones I posted for someone else.

Also, I feel it's important to differentiate between a loose chamber and lack of some amount of actual case support.  That's a big difference in my mind.  We don't know if Kimber 10mm barrel chambers are especially tight or loose or somewhere in between, but only that is would appear their barrels support more of the case than any other manufacturer's barrel does.

We also know that 1911s in general probably require more tweaking toward feed reliability than any other semi-auto pistol platform overall, when they need it.  Still, there are sure a lot of folks out there that love'em and are willing to tweak.  That's just part of the devil in the details regarding 1911s in my mind.

Not trying to make a stink here.  I just think some of the details/semantics are worth noting.  Your hunch could be 100% correct specifically regarding the Kimber 10mm platforms, but then again it may not be.  I'm not seeing enough information to make that judgement one way or the other yet.

I'ld also add that we don't know if Glock 10mm reliability would suffer with more case support (not looseness or tightness of the chamber overall, but actual support or lack thereof) or not.  We only know what they settled on.  Not what they necessarily all tested before going with what they settled on.  And true, some aftermarket barrels for the Glocks give some owners feed issues, but it's also true that some don't while having much better case support.

We are on the same page.  I am not saying that Kimber 10mm's won't work with any ammo.  I am just saying that criteria is not on the top of the Kimber list.  It is on the top of the Glock list.

If a mfg wants to ensure every gun will feed well, they have to put more slop in the specs, or that have to spend lots of time hand fitting all the components.  In the price range of the Glock and Kimber offering, option two is off the table.

In that case you may get a Glock like my 29.  Haven't seen a smile out of it yet.  And you may get a Kimber with a tight chamber that feeds anything.  But, you shouldn't be surprised if a Kimber with a tight chamber doesn't like semi-wadcutters, or if a Glock smiles the brass when shooting Underwood.

[REDLINE]

Well said.  Maybe someday we'll find out if a Kimber can run or not, and with what.

[Intercooler]

They do. I have read reports saying no problems!

[REDLINE]

Well that's some postitive Kimber news.  I wonder if what you've heard included any UW ammo loads.

I see on the Kimber website they use a 16# recoil spring.  I wonder how that works out with UW ammo.  Seems kinda light.  I suppose heavier poundage springs are available for them though, so I suppose it's not an issue then anyway, even though it would require going aftermarket.

One thing I don't get about the Kimber 10mm platforms, the Eclipse Custom II and the Stainless Target II, is the Target model comes with an adjustable rear sight and whatnot, but then they put their better trigger in the Eclipse model and left the Target model with the standard trigger.  Shouldn't the better trigger be in the Target model?  I don't know, just seemed odd to me.  Regardless of which trigger the gun comes with from Kimber, they say trigger pull is 4.0-5.0 lbs.  Is that a standard pull weight on 1911s in general?

Okay, one more question;  Are the Kimber 10mms SA or DA?  Does it really matter?  And why?  Okay, it was more than one more question.