The Real Problem with the Delta Elite

[sqlbullet]

I don't personally think it is the un-ramped barrel.  See other recent threads.  The Delta Elite will handle a proof load just fine, just don't count on the brass being usable after.  And in spec ammo will run just fine.

The real problem I see is the general lack of value.  I was just browsing Gunbroker, thinking of what I might add to the 10mm stable next.  I noticed a couple of things.  Among them that the Sig P220 DA/SA Lipseys specials are going for $1,050.00-$1,250.00.  Or one of the Sig Tac Ops 1911 10mm's.  Or a used Dan Wesson if you shop hard.

I had a DE years ago.  I miss it.  I was a fine gun.  I bought it new in box in 1993 for $350.00-$400.00, and I think that was a pretty good value for a 10mm at the time.  There weren't a lot of other options in 10mm at the time.  According to inflation calculators, that is about $575.00-$675.00 in todays buying power.

But today, there are lots of solid options in the 10mm market.  Lost of options I think have better value than the Delta Elite.  I could recommend a Delta Elite over a RIA at $700.00.  I would definitely say get the Colt over the RIA at $650. 

But I don't see picking the Delta Elite over the Sig options.  And I don't see it realistically as much better than the Armscor guns of today.

And that is the real issue I see with the Delta Elite today.

[The_Shadow]

I have to believe some of the ammo we have documented has been loaded over the actual SAAMI established MAP.

Why do I say this?  Even as I had question companies like UW who said all of his ammo was within SAAMI spec and in talks with Mike of SF who was actually testing ammo in a homemade pressure testing barrel he himself made said some of his was just outside or at the upper numbers allowable, both had ammo that went out the doors that caused casing ruptures in various guns to include the Colt Delta Elite.

Warnings such as only use in FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBERS had been printed on the ammo box or in their online specs.

To get the numbers that their ammo provided, the documentations have shown the loadings to be beyond the actually published data.  Many of us tested these loads in our own guns as setups and each firearm is different.  We have seen differences in the actual amount of powder that actually dropped into a particular casing.

Bores for the DE's has been shown @ 0.3990",  Tighter than some of the other makes. Yes the support was somewhat lacking, these heavy loadings started to exceed the brass alloy strength and bulges occurred.  Guns that experienced the bulging, seem to have exceeded that of the areas unsupported, like the expansion was pushing or wedging the case further out of battery.  Also swing links were sometimes out of tolerance as shipped.  Recoil systems may have been exceeded by ammo that ran above the rated pressures.

When you consider your own firearm, all things need to be taken into account.  Barrel's actual bore dia., roughness,  Bullet dia. and fit in that bore.  Bullet's construction and gilding metal itself.  Amount of lube in a bore can and does affect pressures.
Recoil systems or other factors like slide mass, main springs, etc.  NO TWO ARE EXACTLY ALIKE!

One of the benefits of handloaders is that we can sneak up on the documented loadings, while observing how our own guns handle the loads tested...with new and used casings as they are made on our own dies. 

[REDLINE]

The Delta Elite will handle a proof load just fine...

Where do you have that information from?

[4949shooter]

There is a Delta Elite down at my LGS. It is tempting to say the least.

There is also a Kimber TLE in 10mm.

But the unramped / less supported barrel has been keeping me from the DE thus far. Even though I have heard from more than one source the Underwood ammo has been fine with it.

[macc283]

For the money kimber Sig Colt in that order. You get better barrels and night sights plus the Sig comes with 4 magazines and if you look online the kimbers are selling g for 899$ ish

[01deuce]

I have a Sig tacops 10mm & a Delta elite (and several other 10mm's)

I love the Sig and it is what I usually grab first when going out back. With that said it had problems out of the box and had to go back to Sig.(runs fine now) If you compare the Sig and the colt the Sig has more "flash" about it and a slightly better slide to frame fit. The Colt has better quality small parts. I'm not saying mim parts are horrible ( some might) but imo certain parts should not be. As in Sig has a mim slide stop and the Colt has a bar stock slide stop. My tacops now has a Harrison slide stop as that happens to be a part that I personally don't think should be a cheaper mim part. Just one example of why I feel the Delta elite has great value and especially at or under $1,000.

They are both very accurate and a pleasure to shoot and that includes plenty of UNDERWOOD through through the Delta !


[attachment deleted by admin]

[sqlbullet]

The Delta Elite will handle a proof load just fine...

Where do you have that information from?

http://rangehot.com/case-head-support-colt-delta-elite/

This is the first hit I get that says they will handle a proof load.  It does indicate it will trash the brass though.

[REDLINE]

Thanks

[Ridgerunner665]

And that is 1911Tuner.... He knows a thing or 2 about 1911's, and guns in general... Haven't personally met him, but have chatted with him a good bit in years past, I learned a great deal from him about 1911 timing (and pistol timing in general)... He's not just your average gun rag writer.

[sqlbullet]

And that is 1911Tuner.... He knows a thing or 2 about 1911's

That is a HUGE understatement.

I actually didn't realize he was the author when I posted the link and was a little hesitant about it since the article itself wasn't better documented.  Now I am very confident given who the author is.

[The_Shadow]

I posted this over on the article from the link above;

I had asked in the past, companies like Underwood Ammo in particular, about the pressures from their ammo and their statements have been that their ammo is within SAAMI Spec.  For all practical purposes this is what SAAMI 205 has set for the 10mm.

Example of 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.

Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Average pressure MAP of 37500 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi

The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.

Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi.

PROOF PRESSURE
Proof Pressures for 10mm are 130% minimum and 140% maximum as set by SAAMI
The formula is based on the Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38,700 psi
38,700 x 1.30 = 50,310 psi  and 38,700 x 1.40 = 54,180 psi
Minimum and Maximum
50,310 psi - 54,180 psi  these would be rounded to 50,500 psi - 54,000 psi

Why did I ask these questions? 
Doing the pull-down documentations have shown powder charges that exceed the published data that shows pressures below the 37,500 psi values.
We know that, people can and do make mistakes for whatever reason while loading their own ammo and that may or my not lead to problems.

Also the question of the strength of the brass comes into play.  Malleability and alloy are the very important to a cartridge case.  The stamping and production processes when brass casings are being made can be crucial to longevity and reuse.

New Starline cases are usually softer as made with handloaders in mind, so they will not work harden as quickly.  Other brands from factory ammo have been questionable for reuse.  Things like SMILES, Fatigue, stress fractures have have been seen with the first firing of commercial ammo.  Anyone who intends to handload accepts the risk and the important task of case inspection and preparations.

[Overkill338]

And that is 1911Tuner.... He knows a thing or 2 about 1911's, and guns in general... Haven't personally met him, but have chatted with him a good bit in years past, I learned a great deal from him about 1911 timing (and pistol timing in general)... He's not just your average gun rag writer.

He lives near me. He fixed one of my 1911 problems with a single PM. That guy is a wealth of gun knowledge and probably forgotten more than most of us will ever know.

[REDLINE]

...this is what SAAMI 205 has set for the 10mm.

What does "205" reference?

[The_Shadow]

...this is what SAAMI 205 has set for the 10mm.

What does "205" reference?

It is the SAAMI Publication number for specifications and pressure
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

[sqlbullet]

So, reading Patrick Sweeney's book "1911, The First 100 Years" and he is describing his walkthrough of the Colt factory 1911 lines.  He has a couple of paragraphs on how barrels are made. 

This was in one of them:

"Then Henry, the operator, fires a proof round in each barrel.  So, even if you buy a replacement Colt barrel, it has been proofed"  Pg 127