Question from a NOOB.

[Les]

Hi there!

I've been collecting firearms, specifically handguns, off and on for most of a decade.  I have for reasons I'll leave you to speculate a fondness in particular for pistols (semi-auto and revolver) which lean away from light, fast, and high-capacity and towards heavy, slow, fewer but Bigger.

This brings me to the 10mm and the rather scattered information I've been able to glean on my own before taking the plunge and diving into forums such as this one to get the specifics.

From what I (Think) I know.

1) 10mm Auto is also known as 10mm Norma.

2) 10mm Auto was originally intended for a CZ-75 clone known as the 'Bren Ten', made famous by Miami Vice.

3) 10mm Auto was briefly considered as the standard service round of the FBI, trials testing it's suitability led to the development of the .40 S&W cartridge.

4) 10mm Auto in it's original configuration is comparable in performance to .357 Magnum, perhaps .41 Magnum.

5) 10mm Auto in it's original loading is suitable for mid-size and larger game (white-tail deer, wild pigs etc..)


Here's where it get's iffy.

6) Most contemporary commercially available 10mm Auto ammunition is loaded to a spec that emulates .40S&W and is significantly weaker than original factory spec.  Some smaller manufacturers (like Buffalo Bore) offer 'Full House' 10mm Auto ammunition.

7) Most contemporary commercial semi-auto pistols chambered in 10mm Auto are optimized for the commercial '10mm Lite' chamberings and can't reliably operate with 'Full House' loads.

8 ) Modifying a commercial factory 10mm gun to reliably handle 'Full House' ammo ruins it's ability to run more common '10mm Lite' loads.  You can't swap loads without swapping parts.


I live out in a lovely spot of rural nowhere such that wild pigs are definitely a problem, having a pistol on my hip that could reliably deal with such pests would be a boon for hiking down in the back-40, but unless my above info is incorrect it sounds like 10mm Auto might be more of a hassle than it's worth... especially since I don't have the time or bench-space to devote to picking-up hand-loading.

If any could help expand my knowledge on this subject I'd greatly appreciate it.

[tommac919]

Me say mostly good...

Tho #4 is almost there , the ten comes close to low end 41 mag, but not upper
#7 I'd say depends on gun... G20 stock handles anything I've given it , a bit heavier spring about 20-22lbs works better with heavier loads but still the weak ones.

There are some comm round that will handle hogs...

The best part is the 10 can be a target gun or a hunter... Weak to hot loads make a diff

[Les]

Define 'better'.   More reliable, more comfortable, more accurate?

I'm kinda leaning Tanfoglio, the Witness P Match looks particularly handsome.

[The_Shadow]

Well welcome to the forum Les...Here is what I will say from my experience...
The EAA are good guns and will serve your needs.  Yes replacing the recoil springs on any of the 10mm guns can help and will still provide reliable service with most all strength and impulse 10mm loadings from mild to wild!  The higher impulse ammo needs this extra spring rate to slow the slide velocities and take up the impulse.

I have several S&W 10xx series guns and I run the 22 lbs springs in the 5" models and the 20 lbs in the 4.25" models, this has been 100% reliable with comparable 40S&W target play loads down to 750 fps and has handled all loads to equal Underwood, Buffalo Bore and SwampFox impulse. 

In the Glock-20SF, I run the Wolff non captive recoil rod with 22 lbs spring and the G-29 also a non captive Wolff dual 21 lbs spring set and two piece recoil rod.  Measurements have shown me better lock up and extra power at full slide retraction as well.

I use these same springs with the conversion barrels for 40S&W 357 Sig and 9x25 Dillon.

[sep]

Reference #7 above, my Glock G40 with KKM barrel and stock recoil spring handle my wimpy handloads as well as my full power 200 grain WFNGC loads.  The same can be said of my Dan Wesson Bruin and my STI Perfect 10. No spring change or anything else required to go from low power to full power loads.

[Les]

Thanks very much, I've learned more in the past few hours than I've learned in the past few Weeks.

[sqlbullet]

Hi there!

I've been collecting firearms, specifically handguns, off and on for most of a decade.  I have for reasons I'll leave you to speculate a fondness in particular for pistols (semi-auto and revolver) which lean away from light, fast, and high-capacity and towards heavy, slow, fewer but Bigger.

This brings me to the 10mm and the rather scattered information I've been able to glean on my own before taking the plunge and diving into forums such as this one to get the specifics.

From what I (Think) I know.

1) 10mm Auto is also known as 10mm Norma.

2) 10mm Auto was originally intended for a CZ-75 clone known as the 'Bren Ten', made famous by Miami Vice.

3) 10mm Auto was briefly considered as the standard service round of the FBI, trials testing it's suitability led to the development of the .40 S&W cartridge.

4) 10mm Auto in it's original configuration is comparable in performance to .357 Magnum, perhaps .41 Magnum.

5) 10mm Auto in it's original loading is suitable for mid-size and larger game (white-tail deer, wild pigs etc..)


Here's where it get's iffy.

6) Most contemporary commercially available 10mm Auto ammunition is loaded to a spec that emulates .40S&W and is significantly weaker than original factory spec.  Some smaller manufacturers (like Buffalo Bore) offer 'Full House' 10mm Auto ammunition.

7) Most contemporary commercial semi-auto pistols chambered in 10mm Auto are optimized for the commercial '10mm Lite' chamberings and can't reliably operate with 'Full House' loads.

8 ) Modifying a commercial factory 10mm gun to reliably handle 'Full House' ammo ruins it's ability to run more common '10mm Lite' loads.  You can't swap loads without swapping parts.


I live out in a lovely spot of rural nowhere such that wild pigs are definitely a problem, having a pistol on my hip that could reliably deal with such pests would be a boon for hiking down in the back-40, but unless my above info is incorrect it sounds like 10mm Auto might be more of a hassle than it's worth... especially since I don't have the time or bench-space to devote to picking-up hand-loading.

If any could help expand my knowledge on this subject I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks for a concise numbered list.  You have a great start on knowledge about the 10mm Auto. In the interest of clarity I am going to just plow through this like I was the first respondent, but there is a lot of great info in the thread and in no way do I mean to take away from the great remarks of my associates here.

1.  The SAAMI name is 10mm Auto.  Norma was the original developer of the cartridge and their initial loads were very hot.  They set the foundation expectation of a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps.  In general if you see the phrase 10mm Norma load, they aren't applying an alternate name to the cartridge, they are referring to the specs that Norma loaded.

2.  The Bren Ten was derived from the CZ-75 design, but was not a clone.  It was not only scaled up, but had many features that the CZ design does not have.  Among them were a barrel bushing and a cross bar safety.  These ideas were ahead of their time in many ways.  The basic concept of the cross bar safety has been superseded today by the passive firing pin block that is ubiquitous.  And metallurgical advances have kinda rendered the need for a replaceable bushing moot.  None-the-less it is an interesting pistol that was most likely a bit ahead of it's time.

3.  The 10mm Auto was more than considered...It was adopted.  The 1076 was the official duty handgun of the FBI starting in February of 1990 for about five years.  There were a number of challenges, including agents that felt the gun was too large and heavy for daily carry under plain clothes, reliability issues, etc.  It is relevant to note that the FBI never evaluated full power 10mm ammo.  Their ballistics team used handloaded 10mm ammo with a 180 grain JHP at 950 fps from day one.  This is a full 400 fps slower than the 10mm Auto is capable of with a 180 grain JHP.  The ballistics team only 10mm test gun was a Colt Delta Elite that was personally owned by a team member.  Concern about frame cracking with full power loads was among the reasons they tested with a reduced load.  Of course, Winchester and S&W immediately realized that a .400 bullet at 180 grains could be achieved with a much shorter cartridge that was easily adapted to most 9mm sized handguns.  This gave the shorty forties a huge market advantage as any gun maker with a 9mm handgun could produce a 40 S&W with relatively simple re-tooling.  This also allowed a much smaller, lighter gun to deliver the same ballistics as the FBI loaded round in the 1076.

4.  357 Mag, yes.  41 Mag, no.  This misconception came from comparisons to LE loads for the 41 magnum, which were loaded well below the 41 magnum's potential.  For instance, there is a popular (for 41 magnum) Cor-bon 170 grain SD load that produces 1275 fps and 615 lb-ft.  However, the 41 Magnum can push a 210 grain bullet 1560 fps for 1135 lb-ft, well beyond the 10mm auto.

5.  Easily suitable for white-tail on down.

6.  This was very true 10 years ago.  Today I would say that while most commercial ammo is still below 10mm "full-house", it is mostly above 40 S&W spec.  Cor-bon and Federal seem to the worst offenders of putting 40S&W in 10mm Auto clothing.  Winchester loads a proper 10mm in their silvertip,   Be sure to check out the 10mm Auto pull downs section, and the spreadsheet of that data.  In addition to a load library, many of the loads have been chronographed providing real-world performance data on the ammo.  This is useful in understanding how it compares to the 40 S&W.  The recent Sig offerings are a great option for a big name ammo maker providing real 10mm ammo.

7.  I have not found this to be the case at all.  While some have issues with loads from ammo loaded right on the extreme edge, like Underwood's offerings, I have had no issues running any book handload in my Glocks, EAA's or Para P16-10mm.  And while I have played with spring rates in the EAA and 1911's, I have largely returned to factory rates for the recoil springs.  I like +10% mag springs no matter what I am running.  10mm Auto guys do like to tinker, and I think that leads many to think such changes are required. My Glocks are 100% stock.

8.  Also not my experience.  I don't swap parts and run loads from mild to full house.  I have gone through a variety of different spring rates over time, and I do advocate a flat bottom firing pin stop in a 1911.  But I advocate that in a 45 ACP or a 38 super 1911 as well.  In fact, the hallowed John Moses Browning designed the 1911 with a flat bottom firing pin stop.  It was changed at the request of the US army as soldiers had a hard time racking the slide with the hammer down, which, of course, is the point.

There is no reason to avoid 10mm auto because of any perceived hassle.

Get a Glock 20 or 40 MOS and you will be very happy right from the start.  A RIA may have a few hiccups but RIA has been very good about rectifying any issue users have had.  The EAA Elite line will likewise be problem free, though the standard witness line can be a little finicky as they ship.  Mine needed +10% mag springs to run well.

[Benchrst]

G20.4 / 20# spring / works with any load