9mm Ammo Factory/Commercial Ammo pulldown

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Aquila 124 gr FMJ
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1110 fps
Muzzle Energy: 341 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Aquila – Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5885"/Dia. 0.3545": 124 gr. FMJ
Actual weight 123.8 grains (flat exposed lead base) Crimp line 0.3525"
C.O.A.L.: 1.1460" / 1.1470" 
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.3870" Crimp Diameter 0.3755" Length 0.7480"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? AA# 2 ?  4.6 grains *
(very fine flatten ball)
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Aguila 124gr FMJ Springfield XD 4" 1053, 1035. Average = 1044 FPS/ 300 LBS

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Remington 124 gr +P Golden Saber BGSHP
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1180 fps
Muzzle Energy: 384 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Remington – Nickel
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5765"/Dia. 0.3550": 124 gr. BGSHP
HP depth 0.1180" / HP cavity 0.1800" / HP mouth 0.2000"
Actual weight 124.2 grains (flat base) Crimp line 0.3480"
C.O.A.L.: 1.1245" / 1.1260" 
Primer: Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.3865" Crimp Diameter 0.3770" Length 0.7480"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? AA#5 ?  6.0 grains *
(very fine flatten ball)
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P JHP Springfield XD 4" 1178, 1182. Average = 1180 FPS/ 383 LBS

[Intercooler]

Interesting the Aguila 115 and 117 were within 1.8gr's on bullet weight with the same powder charge. My Chrony results showed the 117gr 2 FPS slower... amazing!

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Winchester 115 gr SilverTip STHP
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1225 fps
Muzzle Energy: 383 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Winchester – Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5460"/Dia. 0.3545": 115 gr. STHP
HP depth 0.2690" / HP cavity tapered" / HP mouth 0.2195"
Actual weight 115.6 grains (flat base) Crimp line 0.3480"
C.O.A.L.: 1.0810" / 1.0830" 
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.3860" Crimp Diameter 0.3740" Length 0.7500"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? non canister ?  6.2 grains *
(very fine flatten ball) ? Similar to the powder used in the Aquila and Remington but darker ? 
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Winchester Silvertip 115gr JHP Springfield XD 4" Average = 1238 FPS/ 391 LBS

[Intercooler]

That Silvertip is what created the 10mm!


  I know Magtech makes a 115gr +P+ but can't find it in stock anywhere. Know of any other high end 9mm's I missed on the list?

  I tested all the Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Underwood and Cor-Bon but we didn't get pull-downs on all of them. Pretty sure you know what Kevin's powder is and that's the most ooomph.

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Winchester 115 gr +P+ Ranger T JHP
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1335 fps
Muzzle Energy: 455 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Winchester – Brass  WCC +P+
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5370"/Dia. 0.3550": 115 gr. JHP Ranger
HP depth 0.2600" / HP cavity tapered" / HP mouth 0.1855"
Actual weight 115.0 grains (flat base) Crimp line 0.3545"
C.O.A.L.: 1.0910" / 1.0910" 
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.3855" Crimp Diameter 0.3780" Length 0.7475"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? non canister ?  6.8 grains *
(very fine flatten ball) ? Similar to the powder used in the Aquila and Remington but darker ? 
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014;Winchester Ranger T 115gr JHP +P+ Springfield XD 4" 1346, 1356. Average = 1351 FPS/ 466 LBS

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Winchester 127 gr +P+ Ranger T Series JHP
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
Muzzle Energy: 441 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Winchester – Nickel  WCC +P+
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6110"/Dia. 0.3550": 127 gr. JHP Ranger T Series
HP depth 0.14450" / HP cavity tapered" / HP mouth 0.2125"
Actual weight 127.0 grains (flat exposed lead base) Crimp line 0.3515"
C.O.A.L.: 1.1300"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.3855" Crimp Diameter 0.3760" (tight) Length 0.7460"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? non canister ?  6.8 grains *
(very fine flatten ball) ? Similar to the powder used in the Aquila and Remington but darker ? 
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Winchester Ranger T 127gr JHP +P+ Springfield XD 4" Average = 1323 FPS/ 494 LBS

[The_Shadow]

I recently found these statements...( I have no pictures of this powder to confirm or deny. )

New WAP -- Winchester Action Pistol is one of two powders introduced in 1994. Designed to be same as factory loaded in Winchester 9mm and .40 S&W.

WAP is said to be the same as Ramshot Silhouette, however I don't thing it is as fine as the stuff Winchester is using in current production ammo.

In the past it was loaded with W540/HS6 powder.  Now it is loaded with a non-canister grade version of WSF powder.

The books don't publish much +P data and forget about +P+ data...

IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT THE HEAD STAMP ON THIS BRASS!!!
Due to limited supplies of 9mm +P+ brass in the industry, Buffalo Bore has been forced to use 9mm +P brass when loading their 9mm +P+ ammunition. Ammunition will be head-stamped +P or +P+ but is in fact +P+ loads.

Also was reading this post on another forum...Beware if you have a 9mm gun not up to +P+ loadings! 

Plus  Charles E. Petty
Basicly..... Is it worth it to beat the snot out of your firearm for a little extra?



The current SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute) standard for 9mm Luger ammunition specifies a maximum product average chamber pressure of 37,400 p.s.i., but, the +P+ loads exceed this by a substantial margin. A limit of 42,000 p.s.i. has been proposed for this ammunition. For comparison, proof load pressure (nominal average) is set at 49,800 p.s.i. Now the situation is even further confused, for Remington has begun to market +P 9mm Luger ammunition with a proposed pressure limit of 38,500 p.s.i. To clarify, +P ammunition is available for commercial sale while +P+ loads are not.
All of this raises the question of what the civilian shooter can use in his gun. Even though the ammunition manufacturers take pains to insure that special law enforcement loads do not circulate in civilian channels, it is unrealistic to expect that some will not "leak" out. The same is certainly true for M882 service ammunition, and it is important that the civilian shooter who encounters any of these loads be able to recognize them and understand that this ammunition is different. M882 NATO ammunition as loaded by Olin Corp. (Winchester) and formerly loaded by Federal is currently specified to drive a 124 grain FMJ bullet at 375 meters per second (1230 f.p.s.), which puts it in nearly the same league as the various +P+ loads.

Winchester requires purchasers of +P+ ammunition to sign a release which states in part: "The 9mm 115 grain +P+ cartridges covered in this purchase order are specially loaded to achieve higher velocity. Therefore, the pressure level is higher than standard 9mm Luger cartridges. Individual cartridges may achieve pressure which may approach or exceed the proof load pressure a particular pistol may have been subjected to in factory proofing.
This cartridge is not recommended for use in any aluminum frame and/or cylinder pistols and may cause damage to modern steel pistols because of the higher pressures.

"THESE CARTRIDGES SHOULD BE USED IN MODERN PISTOLS ONLY. CHECK THE CONDITION OF THE PISTOL OFTEN. IF DOUBT EXISTS AS TO THE USE OF THESE CARTRIDGES IN YOUR PISTOL, CONSULT THE PISTOL MANUFACTURER." The demand for +P+ loadings has caused some consternation among firearm and ammunition manufacturers and there has been some finger pointing both ways. So, in an effort to clarify the situation, all of the major manufacturers and importers of the popular "wondernines" were queried about their position on the use of NATO and +P+ ammunition in their products. This is something of a hot potato as far as the firearms manufacturers are concerned, and most were understandably cautious or did not reply at all.

A Smith & Wesson spokesman indicated that S&W was not in favor of using +P+ ammunition, although it was studying the subject. This presents an interesting paradox, for the Illinois State Police, one of the first agencies to ask for +P+ loadings, is a major user of S&W

While increasing bullet velocity increases energy, it is questionable whether this is really meaningful in practical terms. A 200 f.p.s. increase in velocity (about what you get going from standard to +P+ 9mm ammunition) does not guarantee significantly better results in actual shooting situations. When you consider that this gain, roughly 15%, is accomplished at an increase in pressure that could be as much as 33%, it makes me wonder if it is all worthwhile.

[CaesarI]

This thread is excellent. I joined the forum just to let you know how useful it has been. Lots of very accurate data has been put together.

That said, I can offer you some help as you basically completed my puzzle (reverse engineering M882 9mm NATO ammo).
9mm NATO ammo in current production uses WPR 289 as made by Saint-Marks Powder / General Dynamics. It is the non-cannister grade of Silhouette/WAP. Winchester dropped WAP and Ramshot picked it up, as you already knew.  If you'd like confirmation on this I can confirm WPR 289 is WAP from New Zealand laws: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1994/0005/1.0/whole.htm  I can confirm WPR 289 is M882 Milspec from here and other sources: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayCumberlandSteveFaintich.pdf   Silhouette uses an effective flash suppressant and gives good performance for the pressure which is why it is so popular in commercial loadings.

A lot of the powders you have labelled as Power Pistol are I suspect cannister grade BE-86 or BullsEye 86. BE-84 is the non-cannister grade PowerPistol and was the old M882 powder before being replaced by WPR289. BE-84 isn't used in commercial loadings for defensive ammunition anymore due to its lack of flash suppressant. BE-86 is flash-retardant (potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate) treated BE-84. It would also make sense that it is loaded in Speer factory ammunition since ATK owns Alliant/Hercules.

Also on post 69 the muzzle velocity is incorrectly listed as 1200fps. It is correctly listed in the picture at 1050.

-Morgan

[The_Shadow]

CaesarI, thank you for your participation (always welcomed), comments and observations, I will say I don't know everything.  I am here to learn as well.  I do try to research many aspects to bring about facts.  Thanks for the links you posted as I am reviewing and researching these further.

Alliant shows BE-86 on their site like it will be released as a canister product.  They have never answered any of my written questions.  No canisters for purchase. No load data has been shown either.  Still looking though!
I have been seeing powders (looking like Power Pistol) with performance and charge weights very similar, however in some of the commercial loadings there are some slightly larger whitish/gray translucent flakes in the mix.  Researching to see if these flakes are added as a flash suppressing additive or identifier?  

These powder companies can mix/blend or make new powders as they see needs, usually as a non-canister grade.

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Magtech 115gr FMJ 9A
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1135 fps
Muzzle Energy: 330 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: CBC – Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5730"/Dia. 0.3545": 115 gr. FMJ
Actual weight 115.0 grains (exposed lead base) Crimp line 0.3525"
C.O.A.L.: 1.1545" 
Primer: Brass color (symbol A on primer)
Case: Diameter 0.3870" Crimp Diameter 0.3760" Length 0.7465"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? Unknown ?  5.4 grains *
(whitish color thick flake)
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Magtech 115gr FMJ 9A Springfield XD 4" Average = 1165 FPS/ 347 LBS









Magtech states;

One of our major advantages is that our factory is fully vertically integrated with its own powder plant, primer plant, and the brass and bullet processing is completed in the ammunition plant to ensure the world's finest ammunition. While other ammunition companies rely on outside vendors to supply various components, Magtech houses all of these processes inside our ISO 9001 Quality System Certified Facility.

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Grizzly 90gr JHP +P
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1625 fps
Muzzle Energy: 527 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line – Brass +P
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.4475"/Dia. 0.3545": Hornady 90 gr. JHP 
Actual weight 90.0 grains (flat copper base) Crimp line 0.3545"
HP depth 0.1500" / HP dia. 0.1025" / HP mouth 0.1620"
C.O.A.L.: 1.0635"  / 1.0570"
Primer: Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.3855" Crimp Diameter 0.3765" Length 0.7465"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? WAP / Silhouette  ?  7.6 grains *
(+P data is not regularly published)
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Grizzly 90gr +P JHP Springfield XD 4" 1527, 1546. Average = 1536.5 FPS/ 472 LBS

[Intercooler]

Neat looking powder.  So that is the same as Crossfire?

[The_Shadow]

Neat looking powder.  So that is the same as Crossfire?

The Magtech powder is definitely different...I don't have a clue :'(  I want to learn more about this powder ...Just when you think you may have seen it all!   

The Crossfire & Grizzly appear to be the same, ? Accurate Arms #5 / WAP / Silhouette ?  It closely matches my picture files.
The reason for the question marks is so many of these flatten ball powders share visual appearances but burn characteristics can be very different.  When studying the amount of powder vs. yield and comparing it to load data listed in the manuals the amount of powder vs. yield and pressure values, you can eliminate a lot.  So you are left with what fits the profile.  The only way to be 100% sure is to do a workup to verify results.

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Fiocchi 115gr FMJ 9AP
Ballistics Information: 9mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1250 fps
Muzzle Energy: 400 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: GFL(Giulio Fiocchi, Lecco, Italy) – Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5925"/Dia. 0.3540": 115 gr. FMJ
Actual weight 114.6 grains (concaved exposed lead base) Crimp line 0.3525"
C.O.A.L.: 1.1575" / 1.1575" 
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.3870" Crimp Diameter 0.3775" Length 0.7480"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight:  ? ?  5.2 grains *
(very fine flatten ball)
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Fiocchi 115gr FMJ 9AP Springfield XD 4" Average = 1130 FPS/ 326 LBS
Tested by Intercooler 02/01/2014; Fiocchi 115gr FMJ 9AP EAA Limited 4.75" 1162, 1139. Average = 1150.5 FPS/ 338 LBS