G20 failure to feed

RJPDVM · December 04 2016 08:08:22 AM MST

I have had this G20 for a few years and have probably run 3-500 rounds thru it. It has a tendency to run a round halfway into the chamber, with the slide impinged on the case in front of the extractor groove. It would tend to do this more on a partial magazine load(MD's hunting reg at 8 rounds in mag). I had done some internet investigation on this when it first happened and the online sages told me my COL was too long, handloads were not good and on----. I stripped the mags and cleaned them and the problem went awat-for a while. It had gotten especially severe when practieing up for this hunting season. The lower count in the mag seemed to result in sluggish advancement of a fresh round. While I was wondering about all this I saw a bottle of HBn in the loading room and decided to swab the magazine and follower with it. Everything in the magazine got much livelier after that. Short story I havent had any FTF since then. As a curiosity my son got the same model the same day at the same shop and has never experience a FTF. ??
Ive run this on another forum and havent had the first response.

punisher · December 04 2016 10:08:06 AM MST

You need new mag springs.

RJPDVM · December 04 2016 02:28:54 PM MST

Put in Wolff increased pressure springs. Not much change. HBn seems to be a fix. Powder or primer residue might be factor?

Buff7mm · December 04 2016 05:01:38 PM MST

Not to pry but are you running a 6 inch barrel in that G20? Just wondering as I live in Maryland an was also wondering about the muzzle energy you are getting out of it?

RJPDVM · December 04 2016 06:42:33 PM MST

Behavior is about the same with both factory and LW barrel. The LW 6" will push 200 gr TRX at about 1275fps. This makes the threshold for MD deer hunting. I think we got around 1335 with the 180 gr bullets.

Buff7mm · December 04 2016 08:02:33 PM MST

I was just curious, I don't hunt here, but West Virginia lets me get away with the stock length from my G20 so it's easy to run my 10.0 grains of Bluedot and 180's

cwlongshot · December 05 2016 06:00:34 AM MST

Well, If you haven't figured it out... try couple things.

1) Clean thoroughly. even going so far as to soak the chamber in a bottle of solvent to be sure nothing is in there you cannot see...

2) Be sure you have a nice taper crimp on the case mouth.

3) Check your OAL. This can wreak havoc on tighter after market chambers.

As for 6" velocities. I have a KKM 6" and routenly net 1380+ from a 175g Silvertip no pressures. But I worked up to that loading and its safe in my gun.

CW

Peter10mm · December 05 2016 09:31:41 AM MST

How do you determine the 1380+fps with a 175gn bullet from a 6 inch barrel is "safe"? That is around 740 ft-lbs, lots of power for sure.

sqlbullet · December 05 2016 10:35:54 AM MST

You do several things to evaluate the safety of a load.

1. Don't exceed published load data. (though lots of guys here do)
2. You watch for signs of pressure

Flattened Primers
Bulged cases, aka smiles
Extractor/Ejector marks in the case head
Velocity jumping above published values
Case head expansion, measured by micrometer, not caliper
Other experience

You also gain experience about how different powders perform. For instance, #9 is a fun powder to get great performance with in 10mm with bullets 175 grain and above. It gives very high velocity and has a safety margin that in general a load that is dangerous can't be seated because of how much powder is in the case.

Fill a case full of Red Dot though, and you have a hand grenade, not a handgun.

Almost all serious handloaders eventually go off book. But they do so with a a great deal of trepidation, and drawing on years of experience. For instance, I am currently playing with heavy for caliber bullets in 358 Winchester. There just isn't data for 300 grain cast bullets in that cartridge. So, I start VERY low, watch for squibs and work up.

Peter10mm · December 05 2016 03:11:49 PM MST

Thanks for those tips and reminders.

I have used Accurate #9 a lot (along with Longshot and Power Pistol) and find it works amazingly well for the 180 grain 10mm. But when I run it at 14.9grains as Hornady's manual suggests it is incredibly fast and powerful. I get some occasional feed issues and tremendous vibration. Velocities averaging 1440 fps equating to energy of 830 ft-lbs with a 6 inch barrel. Sounds, looks, and feels like too much. To your point of velocities way above published as an indicator. So I have backed off out of fear of me and the gun getting damaged. But then I read about people going over 15 grains?!?!?!

I don't have enough experience or knowledge to sort this out with full clarity. Hence I asked my question. What does one define "safe"?

cwlongshot · December 06 2016 06:11:25 AM MST

Responsible reloading is something each of us applies differently. Safe because of knowledge experienced is stronger then experience "gleaned".
Some guys here have been re-loading for some time, with much hands on hows and whys experience packed into those years. Others have loaded a long time...occasionally. ${$default_smiley_smiley}$ KNOWING the results of what you do and how to adjust things as well as the signs to watch for are what this is all about.

Let me ask you a question. How many manuals do you have? I assume a few, if you have been loading some time. Im sire you have noticed how the data is similar but no exact. Well ask your self HOW, cause it MUST be safe to be published right? I mean today when people sue for hot coffee... and WIN. up is down and blk is white right??? Well ultimately we are each responsible for OURSELVES. EACH company did the due diligence to produce what THEY FOUND to be safe under THERE conditions in THERE barrel or test fixture. Same as I do. ${$default_smiley_smiley}$

CW

Peter10mm · December 06 2016 08:03:34 AM MST

Yes, thanks for the good thoughts. I have always rationalized that the handbook data has been demonstrated safe by the testers and publishers. I do have 4 manuals and use data from the powder and/or bullet manufacturers in addition to those. And never go over max published loads. This 14.9 grain AAC #9 with 180 HAP bullets is the one that I have trouble with. Maybe its from my limited experience with 10mm power. But check out the (theoretical) calculations from QuickLOAD. Massive chamber pressures. Primers loose a lot of their edge radius but don't look too severely flattened and never leak or rupture. Not using a Glock so no case bulge. Occasional split case but rather rare.

What is the best gun to hold up to this load day in and day out? Sig P220 looks incredibly robust.

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sqlbullet · December 06 2016 08:56:07 AM MST

CW makes some great points. Reloaders wisdom is measured by the numbers...Number of manuals, number of presses, number of dies, and number of "reminder" cartridges above their bench.

I have three of those last ones. Two 358 Win brass with blacked bases that primer pockets that primers will fall into and out of, and one 5.56 case with a blow-out on the side of the case head. They remind be to reduce 10% and work back up when switching powder lots.

I have smiled 10mm brass, but nothing worse. I usually don't load for maximum velocity, but for a solid 600-650 lb ft and good accuracy and shootability.

I have six or seven manuals, five presses and I don't even know how many dies. 223, 260, 308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 7.62X54R, 358 Win, 9mm, 38 super, 357 mag, 10mm, 44 mag. And those are just reloading sets. I have Lyman M-dies, factory crimp dies, bullet sizing dies. My office floor is decorated with spent primers and brass shavings.

And I in no way consider myself a sage when it comes to reloading. I am a relative newcomer and always appreciate the advice of guys that have decades of experience, rather than my 12 years.

Pablo · December 07 2016 08:32:48 PM MST

Just a passing observation, but some recent 10mm factory ammo has no crimp whatsoever. In fact some Sig ammo still had a little bell left. It would hang in my G20. Run it through my Lee FCD, no issues, no hanging.

cwlongshot · December 08 2016 11:02:13 AM MST

Quote from: Pablo on December 07 2016 08:32:48 PM MST
Just a passing observation, but some recent 10mm factory ammo has no crimp whatsoever. In fact some Sig ammo still had a little bell left. It would hang in my G20. Run it through my Lee FCD, no issues, no hanging.

Yup. I have found this too. I dont buy factory ammo... usually. But back a couple years I bought a Shield40 and found ball ammo for under 8$ a box... I cant load for about that so I said its just for breakin'...so I bought 6 boxes or so. ${$default_grin_smiley}$ Well I had nothing but problems... I did bring a box of 50 of my own hand loads that first day and ALL RAN like poop thru a goose.

I noticed what you did...still a bit of a bell at the case mouth. I set up my taper crimp and ran all thru, guess what. 100% reliability after that! (I am no fan of the FCD)

SPOT ON SQLBULLET! The shelf of shame is front and center next to my scale to remind me to THINK first THEN act.

CW