Issue/duty

[SgtB802]

Well I'll be happy to add my I put on them. When I wrote this it was as an aspect of just the 10mm round as a self defense round in the aspect of law enforcement of 2 legged varmints lol. You are thinking wrong in an aspect as the 223/5.56 does not overpenetrate unless it is stoked with a total metal jacket that round with an interesting round as with fragmenting type of fast expansion rounds for example the ballistic tip. I have seen these do exactly what I call a perfect stopping round it goes in does terminal damage and stops just prior to exit of the body. While there is no perfect round or caliber I believe the more a dept can increase officer safety while minimize danger to the public the better we are. We carried 223 rifles and I carried a 308 bolt rifle for prescicion. Every officer did have a mag of fmj ammo for in cases of barriers but they were not kept in the rifles we carried 55 gr hornady balistic tips. In the testing I have done where we hit a median of similar to human size and density most of the times all the energy was spent and did little to no damage on exit with that round while the same could not be said for the 308 or fmj 223 rounds.

There has been great strides in ammunition manufacturing and design not only in the last 20 years but especially in the last 5 years. You look what technology has done for example the 38spl 50 years ago a 158 grain lead round nose to today 100 gr high energy snub ammo made for short barrels. This goes back to what I was saying about the 10mm in the earlier post a lot of the rounds especially the buffalo bore and double tap are more designed as a hunting or a "bear" load where u are trying to stop a 500-700 plus pound animal. While these loads are great for what they are designed for and no doubt would stop a human the overpenetration would be a factor. The idea is to transfer all the energy into your target so when the bullet leaves your target it's taking energy with it. The perfect round dumps all its energy inside its target and stops 1/4 inch before it exits so to speak.

While I'm not arguing statistic and actual hit rates. Police are to far spread and training budgets sucks I know I was blessed as I was always able to get ammo for our officers to train with as we were a smaller dept (16 officers) but I got a lot of it donated and another thing the type of training is not real life anyone can stand there and punch holes but when the crap hits the fan can u hit your target?  I set up drills with smoke blanks going off running and cover to try to emphasize the real world gun fight. A big problem is the training is a joke for shooting as I have seen officers pass with 80% and that minimum and with no stress so that is not that great that means basically 10 rounds could completely miss the target if all rest was centered.

I took my shooting very seriously and still do I pratice every week. I hold a retired commission and still carry a badge. I know what you are saying but if you can do something to lower the dance of an issue why not do it. There is a change from the shotgun to,rifles. How many revolvers do you see carried? Times change training is changing for example our state police course is such a joke for qualifications I shoot it perfect last time I shot it. Times are changing training is not the same as it use to be accuracy is being replaced by spray and pray.

All I'm saying is if there is a way to reduce a chance or stop a problem before it happens do it. It's far better off to have it fixed before a problem is created!!!!

[sqlbullet]

Your comments echo a lot of my feelings as well.

When I left corrections I very briefly worked for a local agency that issued me a gun for four days and then decided to verify my post certification and my criminal background.  I quit when I found out they hadn't done those things before they issued the gun to me.

That, of course, is an extreme example of un-professionalism.

But, as you accurately state, there are budget constraints to deal with, the impact to staffing when you pull officers off the line to train, etc.  And, many officers in smaller, rural departments may go years without drawing their sidearm outside a training environment.

I have found direct competition training to be good.  I have and regularly use a dueling tree.  The first time you shoot head to head against someone it is really surprising how much a little pressure throws you.  I would love to see some variation of head to head in department qualifier courses.   Not that the loser looses his job, but that the pressure would help represent in qualification your abilities under direct stress.

Thanks for your comments!

[4949shooter]

Also throw in the fact that with modern hollowpoint ammunition, increased velocity translates into greater expansion and LESS penetration.

Though I agree that Buffalo Bore and Underwood would be too much horsepower for the average police officer to handle.

Great discussion!

[PCFlorida]

Also throw in the fact that with modern hollowpoint ammunition, increased velocity translates into greater expansion and LESS penetration.

Though I agree that Buffalo Bore and Underwood would be too much horsepower for the average police officer to handle.

Great discussion!

It is a great discussion, please continue.

[tommac919]

As a retired LEO too after 33 yrs... I was amazed at the lack of proficiency of the average officer....

As prev mentioned , we migrated over to the double tap ( shoot till they stop ) as  training changed.  We started with 9mm and the dept moved over to 40s&w thinking it would be a better round, IMO it wasn't the round but but the training......  most of the leo's went once a year ( tho they could go more for free ). The course was mostly up close, which IMO, lead to "fake" scores , and of course no stress.

I move over to a UC det's positon later where we were able to carry odd-caliper weapons.  This is where other rounds came into play, like 357's and 45 acp if wanted.
It still came down to the multi shots on target not caliper.

Down the road, retired, carrying a G20 most of the time ... started off with Silvertips ( good round ) as carry , but with more practice , now I carry a copy of UW with xtp heads or Golddots....  really warm side, yes... but practice has made me a better shooter and still allows me to double tap an 8" circle from holster

Not something you see with the average LEO shooter



 

[pacapcop]

Love are beloved 10mm.  But .45 ACP, especially urban areas, is sufficient for Patrol Officers. Tac guys approved for 1911s  in .45.

[sgtbones]

How about the Under Wood 180 gr Delta Elite Gold Dot load at 1240 fps.   Not too hot. Also are the V Crowns 180 at 1250 fps, a better round than the Winchester Silver Tips.

[Olgo]

Hey sgt, welcome aboard. Have you tried the Hornady 10mm 175 FlexLock? I too carry a G29 and these are very good loads for carry. 1150 fps and easy on your hand but more powerful than the 40sw.

[tommac919]

Also are the V Crowns 180 at 1250 fps, a better round than the Winchester Silver Tips.

Haven't seen their HPs yet... But last time in VA ( Gander's Mountain ) I was able to pick up 10 boxes of their 180gr fmj.

These are great rounds, IMO, and if the HPs are the same or similar it would possibly be a better round than the Silvertips

Ran 2 boxes in the G20 at a good rate an zero issues.

[CurtisM]

I agree with everyone else, great thread with a lot of info.

I put almost 3 boxes of the Sig Elite 180gr FMJ thru the G20 yesterday and it performed flawlessly.  I haven't tried Sig's V Crown's yet but if shoot like the FMJ's they should be a great round.

[sgtbones]

Thanx Olgo, I have tried the Hornady Flex Lock. Very mild compared to the other full powered 10 loads. I am going to start collecting them and add them to my ammo cache.

[Olgo]

You're welcome sgt. Over 450 fpe out of the G29 is plenty of oomph!

I added some to my stock.

[Overkill338]

I'd use Critical Duty for barriers or 200 XTP Underwoods

[druryj]

I gotta go with the UW 180 gr GDHP.  Sure it's got some ooomph to it; it's a 10MM, it's supposed to.  Of course this is just my opinion. I like the round and the G 29 it's coming out of a lot, and yes, one must practice with it. 


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[Kenk]

My LGS has been searching for Super-X 175gr Silvertips for the last 2 months, and tells me none of their distributors can get it right now. They said it should be readily available for hunting season in the fall. This is a great rd to be sure. If anyone can find / order it please let me know

Hi Ken,

Unfortunately, not really - my distributors say they've actually had it on order, just haven't received any from Winchester.
So, wondering now if Winchester just doesn't produce a whole lot this time of year either!

Thanks,
-Kate