10mm gel tests

[sqlbullet]

Here is where gel testing has real value.

Make 4"X6"X20" gel blocks.  Set them up at 25 yards covered in 4 layers of denim.

When you can draw from cover and hit that block on the first shot every time in less than 2 seconds, then you are pretty well defended.  Placing the shot where it needs to go makes up for a ton of terminal performance deficiency. 

[Raggedyman]

Are deer known for attacking people with firearms, having large, meaty limbs extended in front of them? Small deer can be put down by cartridges that are absolutely unsuitable for defense because the shot will usually be very carefully aimed and the bullet only has to penetrate a couple inches of tissue before encountering vital organs. If you were hunting people, you could get away with similar cartridges. I presume you're not a psychopath and the discussion isn't about hunting, but about defense. The reason for the FBI standards is the fact that people who are attacking you typically don't stand still with their arms at their sides like an E-type silhouette. Rather, they move and often a bullet has to pass through a limb before it reaches the torso. If an arm is outstretched as it might be if pointing a firearm at you, the bullet has to pass through several inches of tissue in the arm before it gets to the chest. To complicate things even further, sometimes a shot enters the target at an oblique angle because the shooter and/or target are prone.

The FBI didn't just arbitrarily make this stuff up to screw with you. The 12" minimum IS based on real world shootings. Their determinations were made based on analysis of literally THOUSANDS of actual shootings. I don't care how many deer you've shot, you can't come even close to the real world data that was used to reach their conclusions.

You're right, of course that gelatin doesn't predict what a bullet will do in tissue. That's not its purpose, either. For that matter, what a bullet does in tissue won't predict what a bullet will do in tissue the next time. Properly calibrated gelatin is a consistent medium that allows us to objectively compare one cartridge to another. It does no more and no less.

Ultimately, shot placement or balance of speed and accuracy, is more important than cartridge selection. It isn't the whole story, though is it? If it were, we'd all just carry a Browning Buckmark or Ruger 22/45. Frankly, the 10mm at full power isn't a very good cartridge for defense because the recoil slows down split times. I know everyone on teh interwebz is ten feet tall and shoots a magazine into a quarter at 50m but no matter how good you are (or think you are), you're faster with a 9mm, .40, or .45. The 10mm is neat because we can carry one gun that's suitable for people AND large or dangerous animals. It's also neat because it's very flat shooting. It's also neat because we're weirdos who like unusual stuff. It's not a magical death ray, though.

[Intercooler]

It is rather neat to visit the range and see all the normal calibers and there you are with a 10mm. You and only you 

[sqlbullet]

It's not a magical death ray, though.

Speak for yourself...Mine is most definitely a magical death ray!

It is rather neat to visit the range and see all the normal calibers and there you are with a 10mm. You and only you 

Except I have convinced so many of my range buddies to get 10's this is rarely true anymore.

[REDLINE]

Are deer known for attacking people with firearms, having large, meaty limbs extended in front of them? Small deer can be put down by cartridges that are absolutely unsuitable for defense because the shot will usually be very carefully aimed and the bullet only has to penetrate a couple inches of tissue before encountering vital organs. If you were hunting people, you could get away with similar cartridges. I presume you're not a psychopath and the discussion isn't about hunting, but about defense. The reason for the FBI standards is the fact that people who are attacking you typically don't stand still with their arms at their sides like an E-type silhouette. Rather, they move and often a bullet has to pass through a limb before it reaches the torso. If an arm is outstretched as it might be if pointing a firearm at you, the bullet has to pass through several inches of tissue in the arm before it gets to the chest. To complicate things even further, sometimes a shot enters the target at an oblique angle because the shooter and/or target are prone.

The FBI didn't just arbitrarily make this stuff up to screw with you. The 12" minimum IS based on real world shootings. Their determinations were made based on analysis of literally THOUSANDS of actual shootings. I don't care how many deer you've shot, you can't come even close to the real world data that was used to reach their conclusions.

You're right, of course that gelatin doesn't predict what a bullet will do in tissue. That's not its purpose, either. For that matter, what a bullet does in tissue won't predict what a bullet will do in tissue the next time. Properly calibrated gelatin is a consistent medium that allows us to objectively compare one cartridge to another. It does no more and no less.

Ultimately, shot placement or balance of speed and accuracy, is more important than cartridge selection. It isn't the whole story, though is it? If it were, we'd all just carry a Browning Buckmark or Ruger 22/45. Frankly, the 10mm at full power isn't a very good cartridge for defense because the recoil slows down split times. I know everyone on teh interwebz is ten feet tall and shoots a magazine into a quarter at 50m but no matter how good you are (or think you are), you're faster with a 9mm, .40, or .45. The 10mm is neat because we can carry one gun that's suitable for people AND large or dangerous animals. It's also neat because it's very flat shooting. It's also neat because we're weirdos who like unusual stuff. It's not a magical death ray, though.

So we agree.  No arguement here.

[Raggedyman]

Good. I'm sorry if I sounded condescending. Re-reading my post, it looks like it could come off that way. To restate more succinctly, hunting is very different from defensive shooting, more so from defensive shooting of a person.

I get a little worked up when people disregard the FBI minimum penetration standards, especially when a firearm novice might read the post and misunderstand. That's how you end up with idiots using #8 bird shot for home defense. I believe that a 135 gr Nosler would, actually, stop a fight quickly in most cases. Unfortunately, there are circumstance where it might not offer enough penetration and if that happens, you're stuck with the ammo in your magazine.

[REDLINE]

No worries.  I understand where you're coming from and agree.  I never meant for anyone to take it that I was making any comparison between FBI standards and hunting applications, nor did I think I wrote it to be construed that way.

I was making an attempt to point out that FBI standards are not the only reason some of us would still like to see the penetration depth in gel for the various 155gr JHP offerings.

[pacapcop]

How did the Norma loads come to be and by who?I know it was Norma ammo maker,but was it FBI approved?Hope that's not a stupid question,just not aware of how those loads were determined and by who.170 at 1400 and then reduced to 1300 and the 200 at 1200.PMC has the 170,just not at 1300.

[Raggedyman]

Glad we're on the same page, Redline. I hate arguing with idiots and of course anyone who disagrees with me must be a retard. 


As I remember, and please don't quote me, the Norma load is a result of musings by Jeff Cooper. It was kinda just an idea back then, then it gained steam, then the FBI determined the recoil was too much, then the FBI lite load came about, then the .40 S&W. For what it's worth, I concur with the FBI's assessment that the recoil is too stiff for defense. 10mm is great for a woods gun, for flat shooting, or for just playing around with something cool and different, but 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are far better suited for general defensive use. What's really cool about the 10mm, though, is that we can just load it down lite at barely over hot .40 specs and have a fast shooting, nice handling round perfect for defense and with a simple mag change have a powerful hunting load or dangerous animal defense load.

[REDLINE]

Glad we're on the same page, Redline. I hate arguing with idiots and of course anyone who disagrees with me must be a retard. 

Well of course, we all rule our own man cave.

10mm is great for a woods gun, for flat shooting, or for just playing around with something cool and different, but 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are far better suited for general defensive use.

Here we'll have to agree to disagree.  You can carry any, all of, or any combination of 9, 40, and 45.  I'll carry nuclear loads in 10mm.  Works for me.  Besides, what fun would it be for us to agree on everything.

[Raggedyman]

Right?

My CCW is a Glock 23. In my 10mm, which I OC, I'm really starting to lean towards a powderpuff 180 gr for personal defense. Something hotter than .40 but not by much. Say 1,100-1,150 fps. Gold Dots and others do a fantastic job at those speeds and less recoil means faster shooting. If I can get that 200 gr XTP to work right through denim, I'd like to use that for camping/hiking here in the low country. I've got high hopes for the Winchester JSP for deep penetration and moderate expansion and if that works I'd like to use that for high country carry. A 155 gr Gold Dot or 135 gr Nosler should work really well for hunting javelina or 'yotes.

[uz2bUSMC]

Frankly, the 10mm at full power isn't a very good cartridge for defense because the recoil slows down split times. I know everyone on teh interwebz is ten feet tall and shoots a magazine into a quarter at 50m but no matter how good you are (or think you are), you're faster with a 9mm, .40, or .45. The 10mm is neat because we can carry one gun that's suitable for people AND large or dangerous animals.

I don't agree with you here. I don't wanna sound rude as I state my opinion in a second so I just want to say up front I don't mean to be. Tone is sometimes hard to convey via text.

I don't give much value to split times when there are small differences. I'll agree that I can shoot my 17 faster than my old G20 and my current G29. Shooting faster often makes people feel good and it all looks the same down range when we are shooting paper. However, as you said, this is not the whole story. That's why I give more credence to what full power 10mm can do down range aside from paper. Regardless of the gun, the first shot will not be affected by recoil. The first shot is also the money maker. Now, I can shoot and I know I can shoot but I'm not one of those interweb commandos that believes I will always score a first shot/s but I want whatever lands on target to have the greatest potential for effect. Even if I can shoot 4.5-5 rounds out of my 9mm as compared to 4 from my 10mm in the same amount of time, the potential for decreasing an assailants ability to do the same to me is greater from full house 10mm loads. Similar to a fist fight, I see no value in hitting my oponent more softly just because I can do it a little faster. Harder hits are better.

Just my opinion.

[REDLINE]

Right?

Don't get me wrong, no doubt I wouldn't want to get hit by anything coming out of the business end of your G23 at any velocity!

My CCW is a Glock 23. In my 10mm, which I OC, I'm really starting to lean towards a powderpuff 180 gr for personal defense. Something hotter than .40 but not by much. Say 1,100-1,150 fps. Gold Dots and others do a fantastic job at those speeds and less recoil means faster shooting. If I can get that 200 gr XTP to work right through denim, I'd like to use that for camping/hiking here in the low country. I've got high hopes for the Winchester JSP for deep penetration and moderate expansion and if that works I'd like to use that for high country carry. A 155 gr Gold Dot or 135 gr Nosler should work really well for hunting javelina or 'yotes.

Both at 1150fps, do you really think there will be a measureable difference in terminal performance between a 200XTP that expands a medium amount and a lighter weight Winchester JSP that expands somewhat less but still expands?  That's a scenario that has good potential to come out even-steven.  I'm not saying don't test the theory, just that I wouldn't expect much noticeable difference, if any.  I could be wrong.  And again, that assumes both start out at 1150fps.

As for 135s, we already know they are capable of working well on deer.  No doubt it shouldn't be any different with javelina (assuming you don't solidly hit the shoulder pad on the boars) or 'yotes.

[Raggedyman]

Sorry. I worded that poorly. I meant that the human defense load would be a little soft but the woods load would be full power so the 180 gr JSP would hopefully be about 1,300 fps or so.

[REDLINE]

With your correction mentioned, I would also be interested in knowing what the difference might be between the 200XTP and Winchester JSP.