Handgun stopping power is real??

[Rojo27]

Heard about this story some time in the last year but came across it again today.  Riveting account of survival with elements reminiscent of the famous 1986 Miami shootout.  On this occasion the Officer was carrying a 45acp in a Glock 21. 

To say the least, I find the Officers tale sobering and thought provoking.     

https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

[The_Shadow]

Yes that one has been around and it makes plenty of sense to me these days...Those being in law enforcement, in light of recent crimes on cops has things much like a war in the streets.  They should have tactical supply vehicles responding for resupply of ammo and guns as needed.
The wanna be thugs or gangbanger will shoot a spray of bullets and being jacked up on drugs makes for a serious perpetrator.  Also taking in account multiple accomplices joining in the fights, it can and will be savage!  They never know whom will jump into the fight either, could even be a baby mama, or any other wanna be!

In a recent video, a guy grabbed a very short AK type pistol and had bullets spraying all over as he shot at another person at a fuel station.  Social unrest is playing out every day as the economy worsens and political tensions unfold!

Best you can do these days is be very aware of your surroundings, practice some proficiency drills, carry a firearm and some extra ammo and pray that you will never need it to defend yourself or family!

[Rojo27]

Wanted to learn more about the circumstances of this event and here is what I've found:
1.  Shootout occurred in 2008.
2.  Officer was carrying a Glock 21, 45acp loaded with 230 grain Gold Dot JHP.
3.  Perpetrator was hit 14 times and still actively trying to kill the officer. 
       -Multiple hits to the chest and abdomen: both lungs, heart, liver were hit.
       -Multiple hits in the arms and legs.
4.  While the Perpetrator may have been dead on his feet he was anything but down and out of the fight after absorbing 14 hits (several of which
      would have ultimately been lethal).
5.  Took 3 more hits to the head to put the guy down and finally out of fight.
        -2 in the face and 1 high on the head. 
6.  For a total of 17 hits of 45acp 230gr Gold Dot.....
7.  No drugs were found in the Perpetrators system.

[4949shooter]

And that officer now carries a 9mm....I believe a Glock 17.

[jeffreybehr]

I think a better title for your thread would have been 'LACK of handgun stopping power is real!'.   

Thx for posting that; I had not yet seen it.  Reminded me to reread Massad Ayoob's comments 25 years after the FBI-Miami firefight...
http://americanhandgunner.com/25-years-after-the-fbi-firefight-the-late-emerging/

[4949shooter]

10mm would have prevented this. 

[DM1906]

10mm would have prevented this. 

Perhaps. But training (or the lack thereof) was a much larger factor. We still have to hit our targets, and at best, we're only doing that at a rate of 20%. 12" penetration is not required to shut down a nervous system. But that doesn't matter if the target is missed, altogether. In 1986, the 10mm wasn't an option, but .357 and .41 magnums were. These weren't politically correct at the time, and aren't now for law enforcement. The .357M was acceptable, but not universal. It should have been. I carried a .357M (with .357M Silvertips, which I paid for) until about 1993. I traded effectiveness for capacity. It seemed like the thing to do, at the time. I was lucky, and never had to test the decision. My primary carry now is 10mm or (full power, no holds barred) .357S. I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT OVERPENETRATION. I don't care much about political correctness, either, which is what that is. I train now, more so than before I retired. Get the job done! End.

[macc283]

Multiple hits to the chest and abdomen: both lungs, heart, liver were hit. 3hits to head it's not training problem it's a ammo problem. Gold dot opens up to soon in 45acp and lack sectional density as well.

[Rojo27]

Didn't find anything on possible bullet(s) failure to expand.... (even a single .451" hole & 410ft-lbs seems serious to me). 

For what it's worth; the 45acp 230gr Gold Dot has a good reputation.  It's on Doctor Gary Roberts' best choices for self defense ammunition list.   
Performed quite well in a recent standardized, consistent test using clear ballistics block.   
http://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-45-acp-ammo-45acp230jhpsgd-20#geltest

[Buckeye 50]

And,.... how do we know FACTUALLY that a rifle would have been better?  i.e., how many shots with .223 would it have taken?

[pacapcop]

Departments are using Federal  HST rounds,weather. 45 or 9mm. It's a good modern round used by law enforcement.  Some go +p. They will never go 10mm, unless terrain calls for it.

[4949shooter]

10mm would have prevented this. 

Perhaps. But training (or the lack thereof) was a much larger factor. We still have to hit our targets, and at best, we're only doing that at a rate of 20%. 12" penetration is not required to shut down a nervous system. But that doesn't matter if the target is missed, altogether. In 1986, the 10mm wasn't an option, but .357 and .41 magnums were. These weren't politically correct at the time, and aren't now for law enforcement. The .357M was acceptable, but not universal. It should have been. I carried a .357M (with .357M Silvertips, which I paid for) until about 1993. I traded effectiveness for capacity. It seemed like the thing to do, at the time. I was lucky, and never had to test the decision. My primary carry now is 10mm or (full power, no holds barred) .357S. I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT OVERPENETRATION. I don't care much about political correctness, either, which is what that is. I train now, more so than before I retired. Get the job done! End.

Agree. Training / ability to hit one's target under stress trumps all else.

[inv136]

I've read this account before as well as many, many others in the 28 years that I worked in law enforcement. I read the arguments about 9mm v .45 and shot placement. But, the common theme of these accounts is that the bad guy was shot numerous times (in some cases 9mm 12 or more times and in other cases like this one .45 ACP) and people complain the officer did not place his shots correctly. In life/death situations you don't have the luxury of perfect shot placement like you would on a practice range shooting at a paper target that doesn't move, duck for cover, or shoot back. I agree with carrying a 10mm (full loads, not watered down 10mm) and is what I carry now that I'm retired. Shot placement is key, but, unfortunately, in a life and death fight you won't always have that luxury. Even most all LE agencies train to hit center of mass which increases your chance of at least hitting the target in a stress filled environment.

[sqlbullet]

Multiple hits to the chest and abdomen: both lungs, heart, liver were hit. 3hits to head it's not training problem it's a ammo problem. Gold dot opens up to soon in 45acp and lack sectional density as well.

Considering that the perp was hit in both lungs, heart and liver, and that the emergency room staff could not infuse blood fast enough to overcome the bleed out rate, I think the ammo performed about as well as pistol ammo can.  This is why we issue rifles firing high velocity ammo to soldiers, and this is the perfect case in point for why patrol rifles should be readily available to officers in their cars, not hidden away in the trunk.

And,.... how do we know FACTUALLY that a rifle would have been better?  i.e., how many shots with .223 would it have taken?

Well, the fact is a rifle was not involved in this fight, so we can't know factually.

But, rifles have far, far, far superior terminal ballistics to handguns.  Assuming the officer could have made the same hits on target to lungs, heart and liver that he made with his 45 ACP, but with his 5.56 patrol rifle shooting good ammo, such as Hornady's 75 grain TAP rounds, I think it is safe to assume that the heart and liver would have been completely shredded, not just perforated.  Same for the lungs.

The exsanguination rate would have been exponentially higher, and the fight would have stopped sooner.

Those have been the facts in other comparative shootings.

The big unknowns here are when in the fight those hits were made.  Deploying the patrol rifle would have been a different course, and we can't know the outcome.

[inv136]

You're exactly correct. This is a known fact that pistols are defensive weapons and long arms are offensive weapons. Otherwise the armed forces would issue pistols instead of rifles if pistols were efficient enough to get the job done. Unless you get into the higher velocity (newer) .357 magnum or .41 magnum and 10mm and more powerful cartridges, a handgun is not going to be enough.