Handgun stopping power is real??

[4949shooter]

Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).

Git some!

I wonder if the price will ever come down, or is the cost of copper the only reason for the current pricing?

I think they are expensive because each bullet is individually cut.

[my_old_glock]

They look impressive in gel tests but different story in real life. No better than the hard ball.

Are you referring to the LeHigh fluted bullet?

Did you see an actual case where the bullet didn't work better than hardball?


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[Olgo]

They look impressive in gel tests but different story in real life. No better than the hard ball.

Are you referring to the LeHigh fluted bullet?

Did you see an actual case where the bullet didn't work better than hardball?

I went to link the site about it and I saw my mistake there. It was a different type of bullet. My mistake.




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[REDLINE]

Sadly there is SO MUCH disinformation out there that it's no wonder so many people are completely bamboozled.

As for the "myth" of stopping power....HANDGUN stopping power at that, YES IT EXISTS just as rifle round stopping power exits, only, you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!

Yup.  Good Post!

[Mike_Fontenot]

you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!

Yup.  Good Post!

Apparently, some states require a minimum bullet diameter to legally hunt a particular type of game.  What exactly is that requirement based on?  For example, Underwood has a 270 WSM 150gr cartridge that has 3305 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, versus a 30-06 159gr cartridge that has 3160 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.  Does that 30-06 REALLY more reliably drop that large animal, compared to the 270 WSM?  If so, WHY?

[REDLINE]

you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!

Yup.  Good Post!

Apparently, some states require a minimum bullet diameter to legally hunt a particular type of game.  What exactly is that requirement based on?

That's a good question.  Though sometimes I think I retain more sanity not knowing.  Like why is it common now-a-days for a varmint cartridge like the 223 to be allowed for harvesting deer?  The answer(s) to that I do not agree with but it feels like I'm in the minority.

For example, Underwood has a 270 WSM 150gr cartridge that has 3305 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, versus a 30-06 150gr cartridge that has 3160 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.  Does that 30-06 REALLY more reliably drop that large animal, compared to the 270 WSM?  If so, WHY?

If the same make/model bullet are used for each then I would very basically say no.  But there's so much more to understanding even that specific comparison in how each load will wound differently far beyond caliber difference.  To keep the comparison more realistic between calibers I would also compare bullets of similar sectional density (the ratio of a bullet's length and weight).

The 150gr bullet in the 270 has a sectional density of .279 where the one in the 30-06 is only .226.  To get to .279 in the 30-06 a 180-190gr bullet would have to be used which puts sectional density in the .271-.286 range.  Or to match up better to the 30-06 150gr bullet use a 270 bullet lighter than 130gr, which is fairly uncommon without going to a varmint bullet, but comes in at .242.

Otherwise with your example, in keeping with the same construction bullet being used in each, similar velocity and energy levels, and both in 150gr bullets and same shot placement at the same distance at common to shorter shooting distances, the 270 WSM will generally penetrate further with a narrower wound channel and the 30-06 will generally penetrate less with a wider wound channel.  And if any parameters are changed then the outcome of each will change to some degree too. 

Usually a state lists more criteria for a big game hunting cartridge than just caliber.  For example, where 22s are allowed usually they also stipulate them being a centerfire round.  Or for handgun cartridges they'll note some specific minimum between caliber, energy level and/or barrel length.

[4949shooter]

In New Jersey, we can hunt coyote with a centerfire rifle. But it has to be .25 caliber or less.

[Mike_Fontenot]

[...]

Thanks for that info.

[Rojo27]

Tragic accident; deepest condolences to the Officer's family and
friends.  Based on details found in t article hard to view
as anything other than negligent discharge. 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/01/california-sheriffs-deputy-accidentally-shot-killed-by-colleague.html

Seemed like the appropriate thread to reflect on this topic.  One individual took 13
rounds (many in vitals) with premium 45acp duty ammo to put down and another
individual is taken out after catching a single accidental backup sidearm hit to the torso. 

[4949shooter]

Tragic.

[DAVIDF]

When someone said that the 9mm meet the bare minimum for penetration and all that. I thought bare minimum hah! I ain't going for bare minimum my friend, when I want to stop the threat I mean right now and no bare minimum BS are gonna make me confident about it.

I trust my G29 with Uw 200 XTP to just do that. 

I saw stuff about light loads at hyper velocities that show tremendous foot pound energies but rather poor penetration in comparison to heavy loads at lower velocities with lower foot pounds. This is why I carry heavy. 16" penetration is what I want.

Many 9mm loads far exceed the minimum FBI requirement. Many of them make the 16" penetration that you want. In fact, my 9mm carry load goes around 18" thru 4LD which is the test that most accurately represents how a bullet will perform in actual shootings. My 10mm carry loads, a 180gr Gold Dot and the Critical Duty actually penetrate less in that test than my 9mm carry load.

[Olgo]

I agree that some 9mm ammo does the job but when it comes to an aggressor who is big boned and mean/high on drugs it'd better work.

My Uw 10mm 200 XTP is bigger and heavier and instead of a push it shoves.

[DAVIDF]

Anybody know why we generally hunt deer with .308's, .30'06's, .270's, and such?  It's because deer - even "little" 200 pound ones, don't know when to lay down and die!  So, we use the principle of OVERKILL!  We hit them with a round that produces gruesome wounds that cause the animal to drop pretty quickly...and even then the outcome isn't certain if the shooter is off in his or her aim!

Does any State ALLOW someone to go deer hunting with a .45 ACP?  If so I want to meet the 'tards that approved it.  Regardless of hype and wishful thinking, the .45 ACP in standard loads hits with a whopping 350-400 lb-ft of kinetic energy...and worse, it's going WELL subsonic which eliminates any and all advantages CLEARLY evident in the strike of a supersonic round, and quadruply-so of the strike of bullets traveling at mach2.5+!  Add to this that FEW brands of "performance" ammo actually chronograph out to their published numbers.

The "lowly" .223 55 grain "ball" round from a 16" barrel absolutely WILL put a man down in his tracks with anything better than a superficial strike for a couple of very good reasons backed up by something known as physics.  That tiny bullet is traveling something like 2,900 fps...almost 3x the speed of sound which means the bullet is AHEAD of the shock wave, and it's the shock wave that creates the entry damage!  Then, upon impact that 55 grain slug, instantly yaws violently, and snaps in half at the cannelure, each moving divergently to extend the damage, and generally dumping most if not all of it's approximately 1,200 lb-ft of kinetic energy into the recipient.  THIS is why you carry an M-16 to a rifle fight and not a .45 ACP!  THIS is why the guy in the '86 Miami shootout took out an entire FBI field office before finally going down to HIS "14" some-odd hits."  In that little party the 9mm was blamed (certainly they would never blame the lack of tactics and preparation), and yet, the 9mm then, and the 9mm today is exactly the same...the SAME 9mm the FBI now claims is the cat's meow!  Is anyone REALLY following their lead?

There are a number of states that allow deer hunting including Elk with a .45 ACP and there are plenty of videos out there showing immediate drops from one shot. There are plenty of videos showing hogs dropping with one shot from a 9mm. There are plenty of others showing hogs, deer, etc., running a substantial distance after good hits with significantly larger calibers such as those you mentioned. It is not as simple as a large enough caliber and they instantly drop with a good hit.

The lowly 55 grain .223 or even faster 5.56mm ball round doesn't perform well unless it yaws. That is not always the case. It tends to perform better in a larger person or as it tends to yaw too late thru the torso of a small or skinny person. Doesn't work well thru a thigh due to that reason. In order for .223/5.56mm rounds to be more reliable, they still need a bullet that expands while still penetrating deep enough to reach vitals thru various angles or thru an arm, etc. Some terminal ballistics experts aren't so sure that even rifle velocities are adequate to create more damage due to that shock wave. They also mention that in order to create damage to organs from that velocity it has to be much higher than any common rifle round as in order to do damage it has to be higher than the speed of sound thru tissue which is greater than 4500 fps.

[Mike_Fontenot]

Penetration ALONE isn't the whole story: your body is being constantly penetrated through-and-through by tiny particles, and you're never aware of it.  Similarly, energy (ft-lbs), or momentum (lb-seconds) isn't the whole story either: a hand-thrown "medicine ball" has a huge momentum, and quite a bit of energy, but few people have died after being hit by one ... knocked off their feet, maybe, but no ambulance required.

[DAVIDF]

I agree that some 9mm ammo does the job but when it comes to an aggressor who is big boned and mean/high on drugs it'd better work.

My Uw 10mm 200 XTP is bigger and heavier and instead of a push it shoves.

And, I am not saying 9mm will do just as well as 10mm when comparing the best loads of each. A lot of terminal ballistics experts will be unable to cite any data that suggests that 10mm will perform better. Common sense, which is often underrated, will say that the bullet that expands more and penetrates the same, will over a large test sample, tend to perform better. My point was more that there are plenty of 9mm loads that expand and penetrate to excellent depths. A lot of excellent 10mm loads will penetrate less due to the bullet being designed for .40 S&W velocities. They work excellent, but tend to penetrate closer to the minimum depth than many 9mm loads. The 200gr XTP has excellent penetration and can't be driven too fast in a 10mm without exceeding safe pressures. That one will always penetrate good except thru certain barriers such as safety glass. Hornady's Critical Duty will perform significantly better in that test.