Handgun stopping power is real??

[DAVIDF]

The velocities of handgun loads in .357, .41 mag, & 10mm are not enough to make a difference. It takes a much higher velocity to make a difference, such as in a rifle.

[sqlbullet]

Makes me wonder why we don't all carry 9X25 loaded with 85-90 grain copper bullets.  Give you 2200 fps from a 5" barrel.

[Mike_Fontenot]

Makes me wonder why we don't all carry 9X25 loaded with 85-90 grain copper bullets.  Give you 2200 fps from a 5" barrel.

WOW! 969 ft-lbs ... that's .44mag energy ... can it really do that? 

I've forgotten what a 9x25 is ... I THINK maybe it's a 10mm case necked down to 9mm.  So maybe any 10mm gun could shoot it, with just a barrel replacement??

I'm surprised you could get that out of necked-down 10mm brass ... in fact, hard to see how you could exceed 10mm energy (approx 700 ft-lb).

[tommac919]

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=954&CAT=241

The Glock 20 with a barrel swap only supports 9x25, 40 s&w, 357 sig and 10mm .  All same case size at one end, stock mags work fine

[Bozz10mm]

One of a few cases where a handgun has not been immediately effective in stopping a threat.  There are many, many, more cases where a handgun has been effective, as we are seeing in the news lately. 

I already have bad dreams where my bullets just bounce off the bad guy.  I don't need to be reading about this. 

[Olgo]

That is surprising. The officer hit the vitals several time and the fight's still on. And a 45acp WTH? They're supposed to be good man stopper. Only thing I can think off is the Gold Dots working too good by opening too soon.

I like the XTP better and all I ever carried was XTP and still am with my G29 10mm. It's the Underwood 10mm 200 XTP I'm carrying now and I have a couple boxes of Hornady in stock along with the Underwood.

Yesterday I got this from Amazon and I just ordered two G20 15 rnd mags to increase my round counts. Right now I have 15+12+10 on my belt. My G29 have 11 rounds.

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[Pinsnscrews]

Just something to keep in mind...The current world record for someone holding their breath, IE: depriving their brain of fresh oxygen, which would happen with the loss of blood flow...is 22 minutes.

How do we know that some people just don't react in an exaggerated manner after multiple severe shocks to the body with a natural adrenaline over dose?

We like to think that simply shutting off the heart is an automatic full system shut down. That is what in our experience and general reporting is "The Norm", how do we know this officer didn't find the one guy who is Abby Normal. I often wonder what would happen to someone like a deep sea free diver who took several shots to the heart. Granted, this is assuming the shock itself didn't kill them, but here you have someone who has trained their bodies to go for a long time without taking a fresh breath. Who doesn't drop into unconsciousness like anyone else would. Who is used to moving in a fluid environment while holding their breath for minutes at a time and then shooting a spear at a fish underwater, then fighting that fish underwater as they fight their own way to the surface. At what point does "Another Bullet" just blend into the shocks the body has already taken and is no longer effected by the impact? You already stopped the heart, so if there is no pump, they really aren't going to bleed except for what is pushed out when they actually move from muscle contractions. Their brain is still active and going. It is still making decisions as if they were simply holding their breath even though there is no blood pumping fresh oxygen through their system.

This is just something to ponder. I am in no way claiming this guy was a professional free diver or anything of the sort. Just posing the question of "What happens when the office is facing someone who is not the norm physically? Or who's mental stability has snapped and his body is simply operating on muscle memory?"

[Olgo]

While that may be true I think we'd know more if we have the autopsy report as to the ballistics. That will take out the guesswork.

[kilibreaux]

Anybody know why we generally hunt deer with .308's, .30'06's, .270's, and such?  It's because deer - even "little" 200 pound ones, don't know when to lay down and die!  So, we use the principle of OVERKILL!  We hit them with a round that produces gruesome wounds that cause the animal to drop pretty quickly...and even then the outcome isn't certain if the shooter is off in his or her aim!

Does any State ALLOW someone to go deer hunting with a .45 ACP?  If so I want to meet the 'tards that approved it.  Regardless of hype and wishful thinking, the .45 ACP in standard loads hits with a whopping 350-400 lb-ft of kinetic energy...and worse, it's going WELL subsonic which eliminates any and all advantages CLEARLY evident in the strike of a supersonic round, and quadruply-so of the strike of bullets traveling at mach2.5+!  Add to this that FEW brands of "performance" ammo actually chronograph out to their published numbers.

The "lowly" .223 55 grain "ball" round from a 16" barrel absolutely WILL put a man down in his tracks with anything better than a superficial strike for a couple of very good reasons backed up by something known as physics.  That tiny bullet is traveling something like 2,900 fps...almost 3x the speed of sound which means the bullet is AHEAD of the shock wave, and it's the shock wave that creates the entry damage!  Then, upon impact that 55 grain slug, instantly yaws violently, and snaps in half at the cannelure, each moving divergently to extend the damage, and generally dumping most if not all of it's approximately 1,200 lb-ft of kinetic energy into the recipient.  THIS is why you carry an M-16 to a rifle fight and not a .45 ACP!  THIS is why the guy in the '86 Miami shootout took out an entire FBI field office before finally going down to HIS "14" some-odd hits."  In that little party the 9mm was blamed (certainly they would never blame the lack of tactics and preparation), and yet, the 9mm then, and the 9mm today is exactly the same...the SAME 9mm the FBI now claims is the cat's meow!  Is anyone REALLY following their lead?

The problem really?  The 9mm is a 330-400 lb-ft of KE round....the ballistic EQUAL to the .45 ACP.  So they eventually landed on the .40 S&W but in a loading that is....wait for it, the ballistic EQUAL of the first two!  Factually, all the rounds can be boosted...the 9mm can match loads up to about 500 lb-ft with traditional projectiles, the .40 S&W can push over 600 lb-ft with traditional projectiles, and the .45 ACP can be boosted to a little over 500 lb-ft as long as it's being kept somewhere close to the ".45 ACP" pressure loadings.

While the 9mm and .40 S&W are the fastest, neither is much above the SoS and unless we're talking +P, no .45 ACP rounds are...with "traditional" bullets.  (Liberty makes a nifty 78 grain copper round that I personally chronographed at over 1,900 fps from a Colt Defender 3" barrel!  THAT is a bullet that will act "most like" the strike of a .223 round, and completely spend over 600 lb-ft in the recipient.  Liberty also makes the round in 9mm and .40 S&W, yet as with all rounds that depart too far from the madding crowd, they are limited in overall application.

Before the semiautomatic pistol craze took the country by storm, the .357 Magnum was considered the king of handgun rounds, and for excellent reason.  Even in watered down factory loads, when given enough barrel, the .357 Magnum can exceed 700-800 lb-ft of KE and IS an effective "man-stopper" with the appropriate weight bullet.  NOTE I am not talking about snubbies with no barrel and underloads for the recoil sensitive.  I'm talking about true, brute-force .357 Magnum loads.

Both the .41 and .44 Magnum eclipse the .357 Magnum by a wide margin and both are not simply effective man-stoppers, they are effective man-KILLERS and for very good reason - they exceed the minimum threshold of KINETIC ENERGY with large, relatively heavy slugs that create massive tissue destruction and turn any bone they bump into into secondary fragments!  In the medical business one sees a LOT of .22LR, .38 Spl, 9mm, and even .45 ACP "wounds come into an emergency room, yet one SELDOM sees anyone "wounded" with the larger rounds in an ER...why?  Because they generally go straight to the morgue without the need to pass go!  And let me qualify what I mean by "larger" rounds...I mean MORE POWERFUL rounds!  Despite the .45 ACP's diameter it isn't really a "powerful" round...ballistically equal to the 9mm, so yes, if you feel happy carrying a 9mm you're as well "powered" as the guy who chooses the .45 ACP.

NOBODY is going to take a .44 Magnum round to the face, or forehead and need "more" before they stop....NOBODY!  That round will explode the skull and evacuate a significant portion of the contents, without which, the person simply cannot continue their animal blood lust.

Enter the 10mm.  The round Jeff Cooper helped create and the bungling FBI helped to almost kill.  In "real" loadings the round is capable of 650-850 lb-ft of KE and that's before we get into longer than factory barrels.  A "mid-range" load pushes a 180 grain slug at 550 lb-ft of KE which is "only" 200 lb-ft BETTER than the "common load" .45 ACP!  A G-20 stoked with 16 rounds of Underwood 155 grain XTP, EACH round delivering a measured 800+ lb-ft of kinetic energy measured 10 ft from the muzzle...approximately TWICE the MEASURED KE of the .45 ACP Gold Dot that almost certainly did NOT chrono out to it's hyped velocity claim.   As it happens this particular 10mm load is VERY similar to the old .357 145-158 grain loads of yore except from the autoloader you get 2 shy of 3X as many shots and that's before you snap on a +2 Base extension!  THIS is the round and the POWER load the FBI claimed they wanted and needed, then instantly "spec'd" a load less than HALF as powerful!

Do I have confidence that the 10mm will blow open a human skull....absolutely...at over 1,500 fps and 800 lb-ft of KE....yes, yes I do.  Do I have confidence in it's ability to deliver serious wounding and "stopping" power?  YES...it's ABSOLUTELY BETTER BY FAR than ANY of the current "police" calibers!  Proof?  Proof is the RESURGENCE of the 10mm as it has been discovered by hunters and sportsmen who want a potent backup handgun.  10mm Hog-hunting is quite popular...think Hogs just lay down and die with a harsh word?

Sadly there is SO MUCH disinformation out there that it's no wonder so many people are completely bamboozled.

As for the "myth" of stopping power....HANDGUN stopping power at that, YES IT EXISTS just as rifle round stopping power exits, only, you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!    If you don't "believe" in stopping power then WHY grab a 12 gauge?  Why not everybody just run around with .22LR's and "make each shot count" for the instant CNS stop?  Because we all KNOW that's silly.  The problem is rounds like the 9mm and .45 ACP, and even the .40 were never built to "STOP" anyone...but to produce a wound...a "casualty" and as such they are of limited "power."  Growing up in the country, someone showing up with a .45 ACP or 9mm to carry out in the woods for use against predator attack, or for "offensive" use as required, would have been laughed clean out of the county!  EVERYONE knew it was ludicrous to carry such a gun over a good .44 Magnum, or heavy loaded .357 Magnum.  Well, the 10mm is ACTUALLY the modern "equivalent" of the old revolver magnums.  The problem is the revolver cartridges don't translate well to autopistols....which is why the 10mm is a great round.

There IS another round....for those enamored of the .45 diameter and want an autoloader.  The .460 Rowland!  Now THAT is a serious hand cannon that delivers the goods!
In my G-20 frame with LWD Long slide and 6.61" barrel with recoil comp and 24 pound spring, the .460R slammed out Underwood's 185 grain jacketed at 1,750 fps MEASURED! (By comparison my 72 ounce, 6" barrel Desert Eagle .44 Mag with PMC 180 grainers clocked just 1,575 fps for 992 lb-ft of KE).  That's a whole lotta suds and NOBODY is going to soak one of those up and beat his chest for more!  That's 1,258 lb-ft of KE from a 34 ounce gun that can bang out all 11 in less than 2 seconds with amazing control (thanks to the effective comp).  A 255 grain Underwood HC clocked over 1,350 for just over 1,000 lb-ft of KE...in a hard cast slug that will penetrate...and it feeds perfectly every time.  But the problem is...the gun does have "some" kick...about equal to the 10mm, which I personally find quite pleasant in the Glock frame, but more than most seem able to tolerate on their little beaters.

So why do I carry any of the smaller calibers?  Because it's all about convenience versus probability.  The probability I'm gonna need to shoot someone is VERY LOW, so hey, I grab my Defender, or my Sig P228, or My S&W M-642, or my Beretta Tomcat, or my Kaur P-380, or even my Phoenix Arms HP-22!  BUT...if I KNEW I was headed out into a gunfight I'm sure I'd grab something a bit larger....like my Linberta semiautomatic 12 gauge with 9 rounds of Brenneke rifled slugs on tap, or my AR-15 with a Magpul 60 round drum snapped in place, or for sheer meanness, my S&W M-500 6.5" with 380 grain half-inch "slugs" making just over 2,000 lb-ft of KE....that will ABSOLUTELY be a "one shot stop" on a human torso!  You SHOW me the man who can take just ONE...and I'll give him another!

I get a little tongue-in-cheek, but in reality it's sad that ANYONE ever walks out of the house thinking their 9mm or .45 ACP is even likely to put someone down with a single hit - yes it CAN happen, but it's not likely.  So then what really IS the point of carrying a gun with 8 rounds, or even 14 rounds when it takes ALL of them to put one dude down?  For the same size and bulk as a G-21 simply SWITCH to the G-20 and DOUBLE the power?  Why not?  Because of deliberate disinformation that is agenda driven by those seeking to attain and hold some degree of power or perceived knowledge.

As I said at the beginning, ANYBODY who is using the FBI's choices as a model for their own...<peels of laughter erupt>!

And for the record, my "carry" guns are almost always either my Glock 20, stoked with Underwood's 140 grain solid copper "penetrator" rounds, or my G-29 carrying Underwood's excellent 155 grain XTP round that clocked 700 lb-ft of KE from the 3.7" barrel.  It carries a 15 round mag with a grip extender...except for barrel, they're about the same.

[Olgo]

When someone said that the 9mm meet the bare minimum for penetration and all that. I thought bare minimum hah! I ain't going for bare minimum my friend, when I want to stop the threat I mean right now and no bare minimum BS are gonna make me confident about it.

I trust my G29 with Uw 200 XTP to just do that. 

I saw stuff about light loads at hyper velocities that show tremendous foot pound energies but rather poor penetration in comparison to heavy loads at lower velocities with lower foot pounds. This is why I carry heavy. 16" penetration is what I want.

[Mike_Fontenot]

Right on!!

[4949shooter]

Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).

Git some!

[Mike_Fontenot]

Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).

Git some!

I wonder if the price will ever come down, or is the cost of copper the only reason for the current pricing?

[Olgo]

They look impressive in gel tests but different story in real life. No better than the hard ball.

[4949shooter]

Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).

Git some!

I wonder if the price will ever come down, or is the cost of copper the only reason for the current pricing?

I think they are expensive because each bullet is individually cut.