What happened to the VLTOR Bren Ten?

[Captain O]

@%#$&$%#@*%$#@!!!! THAT TEARS IT! MORE %@$#^$%#$%*& "Vaporware"!

Another dream shattered.

[48conkli]

Its to bad a company like magnum research didnt take the helm on this. They would have got this project done.  They have no problem putting out tiger stripped gold desert eagles or rebadging jericho pistol to turn a profit, not to mention have a little bit more in the way of financial backing. Not saying magnum research would be perfect match but more so than alot of other manufacturers, cant see ruger or smith and wesson, doing anything like this.

[agtman]

It makes you wonder though what really went wrong. Was a technical issue that they could not solve, or could not solve cheaply, or was it more of a management issue. Could it be they couldn't sell them at the price they had hoped too? It just seems like they  had steam on the project and then nothing.

The original project executive sponsor left the company.

This. When Eric Kincel left Vltor, the driving force behind resurrecting an "improved" BT left too.

The only real issue now is: since Vltor owns the rights to the BT name and design and has decided not to go forward with completing the project, will they sell the rights to another outfit with both the engineering insight and the financial R&D muscle to complete it and get the gun on to the market? - as Sig did with their 10mm P220 series?

[gandog56]

Yep, repeated unanswered emails to VLTOR kind of convinced me that this was not going to happen. It they finally took down their old web page saying that they were still going to build it. They have a Bren 10 link, but when I clicked on it, nothing came up. A page explaining that they were halting any plans would have been nice, they just left us hanging, instead.

I wonder how much money they actually sunk in it before they decided NAH?

[sqlbullet]

They had working prototypes at the SHOT show a few years back.  I understand in testing they didn't hold up well, and I think the cost of re-engineering the gun killed it.

[Vice]

"....................................
"............. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. ........     vvv

Magazines would the least of your problems if you found a Bren. I've never seen a Bren for sale without a Mag since the late 80's- early 90's.  Mags are out there if you really look. The problem is coughing up the $150-175 and more going rate. 

The critical problem that people directly linked to D&D or were close to them will tell you is, DO NOT SHOOT IT - until you have tested the slide for internal cracks by way of manga flux and X-ray. Then, if no cracks, have it heat treated/hardened and refinished before firing. I personally saw a 5 gallon bucket full of cracked slides.  The gunsmith told me that he had many more buckets full as well.

Knowing this and how RARE the Bren is as well as how much they go for, why would you shoot this?

Look at it this way, there were about 9,000 Auto Mags made.  The Bren book says 1200-1300 Brens were made.  I have a good authority give me the actual number and it was less than 1000! That's 20-25% variance, highly significant.     If Auto Mags are rare, what does that make the Bren, Super Ultra rare?

Yes, I've shot a few of mine, but that was 20 years ago.  Now that I have the facts and information, mine are safe queens that only get coon-fingered whenever I open that particular safe. 

And somebody mentioned about a current Auto Mag resurrection, well this is the second attempt.  Some guys out of Alaska tried to it 3-4? Years ago.   .  So I'm definitely NOT holding my breath on that cool gun either. 

Just my $0.02 from the saddle

(Not my Brens pictured)



[attachment deleted by admin]

[jessie james 58]

It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper

[inv136]

"....................................
"............. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. ........     vvv

Magazines would the least of your problems if you found a Bren. I've never seen a Bren for sale without a Mag since the late 80's- early 90's.  Mags are out there if you really look. The problem is coughing up the $150-175 and more going rate. 

The critical problem that people directly linked to D&D or were close to them will tell you is, DO NOT SHOOT IT - until you have tested the slide for internal cracks by way of manga flux and X-ray. Then, if no cracks, have it heat treated/hardened and refinished before firing. I personally saw a 5 gallon bucket full of cracked slides.  The gunsmith told me that he had many more buckets full as well.

Knowing this and how RARE the Bren is as well as how much they go for, why would you shoot this?

Look at it this way, there were about 9,000 Auto Mags made.  The Bren book says 1200-1300 Brens were made.  I have a good authority give me the actual number and it was less than 1000! That's 20-25% variance, highly significant.     If Auto Mags are rare, what does that make the Bren, Super Ultra rare?

Yes, I've shot a few of mine, but that was 20 years ago.  Now that I have the facts and information, mine are safe queens that only get coon-fingered whenever I open that particular safe. 

And somebody mentioned about a current Auto Mag resurrection, well this is the second attempt.  Some guys out of Alaska tried to it 3-4? Years ago.   .  So I'm definitely NOT holding my breath on that cool gun either. 

Just my $0.02 from the saddle

(Not my Brens pictured)

You must have misread my post which you quoted above. I stated that I want that new VLTOR made Bren Ten. They updated the original Bren Ten's weaknesses such as replacing castings with CNC machined parts. This new VLTOR Bren Ten was to be an updated, improved version of the original.  If I had been lucky enough to have purchased one of the original Bren Tens directly from Dornaus & Dixon (which I was prepared to do when they first posted ads on Shotgun News) I would not be shooting it very much in order to preserve it. For that reason I have never desired to purchased one of the original, old, Bren Ten models. I was going to be purchasing one of the new, VLTOR Bren Ten's if they hadn't of terminated the project.

[inv136]

It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper

That's incorrect. I was monitoring the VLTOR Fortis website's updates as the project that started from the VLTOR Fortis and morphed into the VLTOR Bren Ten. Their updates indicated that they had finally purchased or obtained the rights to use the name Bren Ten. They never gave a reason for why the project was terminated. They provided a list of retailers and started preparing interested buyers to expect notice of availability. The they just stopped giving updates and no notice of the termination of the project. I contacted them recently and they indicated that they are not interested in pursuing the project at this time. I heard that the person that was behind the Bren Ten project left VLTOR and the rest of VLTOR's management is not interested in the Bren Ten.

[The_Shadow]

When the Fortis (Bren Ten) was looked at by VLTOR they ran it through modeling software that highlighted areas of interest or stress...This is what was deemed as improvements to the design...The Shadow Knows and in this case shows! 

Fortis Weblog
March 1st, 2008
The Antithesis of Chaos...
The antithesis of Chaos is generally held to be "Cosmos" — and in our case, Cosmos is the new Finite Element Analysis program that we are using to test the Fortis. Vltor Weapons Systems has brought on some new folks to help out with the Fortis Project, and the investment is paying off well!
As previously stated, we have made some internal changes, in order to make the Fortis more reliable, stronger and safer than the original pistol — currently there are a few computer models that are undergoing repeated testing in computer simulation. The Finite Element Analysis testing allows us to look at areas of potential concern... and we are proud to say is showing us that the changes we have made are indeed improvements.
We are working to make the final refinements to the designs, and we are quite confident that when we move to "hard steel" prototype testing, that real range time will validate the time and cost we have invested in the extensive computer modeling and simulations.
As always... we will keep you posted as things move along — thanks for reading and check back soon

The Frame


The Slide

These two screen captures are from the preliminary Finite Element (FEA) studies that have been performed on the slide and receiver components of the Fortis pistol. The colored areas illustrate the distribution of stresses within the components due to impact loading during recoil. The slide and receiver were assembled together and the tests simulated a 'fixed' firing event in which there was no recoil allowed. This imparts the maximum impact energy on the components, and quickly reveals areas of concern. These studies have been used to ensure the safety of the pistol under rigorous use, as well as help to determine the causation behind the failures of the original slides and frames. The data collected has been extremely revealing, showing stress risers in places one might not expect at first glance. Extensive measures have been taken to ensure a reliable, durable weapon system.
The 10mm Auto round is indeed a tenacious beast, though by designing the system to the full-house specs of the 10mm the Fortis will thrive where other weapons fail.
Note that these are not representative of final geometry, or performance. The analysis process can be lengthy when investigating such a complex system of components, and these captures are simple illustrations taken from the very first passes made for simulation validation.

[Vice]

"....................................
"............. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. ........     vvv

Magazines would the least of your problems if you found a Bren. I've never seen a Bren for sale without a Mag since the late 80's- early 90's.  Mags are out there if you really look. The problem is coughing up the $150-175 and more going rate. 

The critical problem that people directly linked to D&D or were close to them will tell you is, DO NOT SHOOT IT - until you have tested the slide for internal cracks by way of manga flux and X-ray. Then, if no cracks, have it heat treated/hardened and refinished before firing. I personally saw a 5 gallon bucket full of cracked slides.  The gunsmith told me that he had many more buckets full as well.

Knowing this and how RARE the Bren is as well as how much they go for, why would you shoot this?

Look at it this way, there were about 9,000 Auto Mags made.  The Bren book says 1200-1300 Brens were made.  I have a good authority give me the actual number and it was less than 1000! That's 20-25% variance, highly significant.     If Auto Mags are rare, what does that make the Bren, Super Ultra rare?

Yes, I've shot a few of mine, but that was 20 years ago.  Now that I have the facts and information, mine are safe queens that only get coon-fingered whenever I open that particular safe. 

And somebody mentioned about a current Auto Mag resurrection, well this is the second attempt.  Some guys out of Alaska tried to it 3-4? Years ago.   .  So I'm definitely NOT holding my breath on that cool gun either. 

Just my $0.02 from the saddle

(Not my Brens pictured)

You must have misread my post which you quoted above. I stated that I want that new VLTOR made Bren Ten. They updated the original Bren Ten's weaknesses such as replacing castings with CNC machined parts. This new VLTOR Bren Ten was to be an updated, improved version of the original.  If I had been lucky enough to have purchased one of the original Bren Tens directly from Dornaus & Dixon (which I was prepared to do when they first posted ads on Shotgun News) I would not be shooting it very much in order to preserve it. For that reason I have never desired to purchased one of the original, old, Bren Ten models. I was going to be purchasing one of the new, VLTOR Bren Ten's if they hadn't of terminated the project.

Sorry about that inv136!

S

[Vice]

When the Fortis (Bren Ten) was looked at by VLTOR they ran it through modeling software that highlighted areas of interest or stress...This is what was deemed as improvements to the design...The Shadow Knows and in this case shows! 

Fortis Weblog
March 1st, 2008
The Antithesis of Chaos...
The antithesis of Chaos is generally held to be "Cosmos" — and in our case, Cosmos is the new Finite Element Analysis program that we are using to test the Fortis. Vltor Weapons Systems has brought on some new folks to help out with the Fortis Project, and the investment is paying off well!
As previously stated, we have made some internal changes, in order to make the Fortis more reliable, stronger and safer than the original pistol — currently there are a few computer models that are undergoing repeated testing in computer simulation. The Finite Element Analysis testing allows us to look at areas of potential concern... and we are proud to say is showing us that the changes we have made are indeed improvements.
We are working to make the final refinements to the designs, and we are quite confident that when we move to "hard steel" prototype testing, that real range time will validate the time and cost we have invested in the extensive computer modeling and simulations.
As always... we will keep you posted as things move along — thanks for reading and check back soon

The Frame


The Slide

These two screen captures are from the preliminary Finite Element (FEA) studies that have been performed on the slide and receiver components of the Fortis pistol. The colored areas illustrate the distribution of stresses within the components due to impact loading during recoil. The slide and receiver were assembled together and the tests simulated a 'fixed' firing event in which there was no recoil allowed. This imparts the maximum impact energy on the components, and quickly reveals areas of concern. These studies have been used to ensure the safety of the pistol under rigorous use, as well as help to determine the causation behind the failures of the original slides and frames. The data collected has been extremely revealing, showing stress risers in places one might not expect at first glance. Extensive measures have been taken to ensure a reliable, durable weapon system.
The 10mm Auto round is indeed a tenacious beast, though by designing the system to the full-house specs of the 10mm the Fortis will thrive where other weapons fail.
Note that these are not representative of final geometry, or performance. The analysis process can be lengthy when investigating such a complex system of components, and these captures are simple illustrations taken from the very first passes made for simulation validation.

This is why I was really looking forward to buying the Fortis.  To actually have a Bren Ten shooter! 

[BEEMER!]

It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper

If you read the book "Bren Ten  -  The Heir Apparent" by Ron Carrillo, Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with the Company.

In an interview with Cooper and his Wife, they tell Carrillo that they had no money in the Company.  Actually Cooper says he never ever had much money.

He let them use the Raven insignia to both promote the Bren and Cooper's interests.

[sqlbullet]

The rights to the Bren Ten trademarks went from VLTOR-> Peregrine Industries ->(?) VLTOR.  VLTOR now holds them, and this is not a stumbling  block to the project.

[inv136]

This does sound familiar. I recall reading about the upcoming Peregrine Falcon project that never materialized. I was pretty excited when I first read about the Peregrine Falcon and like Dornaus & Dixon was let down again. Why is it that no company seems to be able to get the Bren Ten into production? There are plenty of 1911 pistols in 10mm (I have three), but, the ergonomics of the Bren Ten just feel special. I handled one original Bren Ten at a gun show back in the 1990's and was sold (but not at the $3,000 price tag with only one magazine).