AR 15 newbie questions

[Buckeye 50]

All;


Thinking seriously about getting into the AR 15 world.  I have NEVER done any research on them or owned one. 


Can I please pick your brains about brands and technologies? 


For example:

   
• [size=78%]Are the product nuances in the pistol world applicable to the AR 15 and rifle world such as; triggers VARY greatly by brand and model?  [/size]
• [/size][size=78%]Are there feeding reliability issues with certain brands/models/magazines, etc., [/size]
• [/size][size=78%]Are the less expensive models (< $1,000 any good - range use mostly)?  [/size]
• [/size][size=78%]Are certain brands more popular?  What about Olympic Arms/DPMS/Stag Arms?  [/size]
• [/size][size=78%]Are there brands or brand/models to stay away from?[/size]
• [/size][size=78%]What should I know that I am not asking??
  
  [/size]

[/size]All help is appreciated.[size=78%]

[/size]Thanks,[size=78%]

[/size]Pat[size=78%]

[oldman10mm]

1st-why do you want to enter the AR world ? Not trying to talk you out of an AR as the surplus on the market has nice low prices.
Only one I would avoid is the Bushmaster Carbon15,plastic and breakage reports have been occurring.

[The_Shadow]

Let me backup here:  are you wanting to get a pistol caliber AR such as 10mm?  Other?  223/5.56?

I would go for the Palmetto State Armory https://www.palmettostatearmory.com/
You can build or buy already built...depends on your skill set for the lego guns! 

You will need to understand several things Bullet weight vs. Barrel twist rates...

[sqlbullet]

I just landed in Manila and have only about an hour to get ready to go to the office after my 20 hour flight.  I will post more later.

Short version is this.  Palmetto state is a good gun, but sometimes their customer care is a little rough.  Not that they won't make it right, it just might be slow.

Avoid the carbon 15, and plastic ar lowers in general at least for your first gun.  On the other hand, once you are swimming in the deep end some of the glass filled nylon options are fine.  I actually ordered 8 lowers from tnarms on Saturday.

Last three items. 

Barrels should be chrome lined, melonited or stainless steel.  Chrome lined chro-mo-v or ordinance steel lasts the best, but stainless is generally a bit more accurate.  Shadow gave you the skinny on twist, but to simplify, get 1:8 unless you are building a gun for 40 grain varmint grenades.  The 1:7 is really only useful in bolt guns as the coal for the 90 grain Bullets will make your ar a single shot.

Next, mil spec buffer tube.  If you love the stock that came on your ar this doesn't matter.  But be aware that a "commercial spec" is really not a spec at all.  It is the term applied to all buffer tubes that aren't mil spec.  They can vary enough that some stocks will rattle a bit.

Finally, bolt and bolt carrier.  Learn what properly staked gas keys look like and either buy one with them well staked or learn to stake them yourself.  This is a place budget builders will skimp.

Good luck with the addiction.  It is worse than 10mm.  I have 14 in my safe now in same state of build and 8 more coming.

[my_old_glock]

All;


Thinking seriously about getting into the AR 15 world. I have NEVER done any research on them or owned one. 


Can I please pick your brains about brands and technologies? 


For example:
* Are the product nuances in the pistol world applicable to the AR 15 and rifle world such as; triggers VARY greatly by brand and model?
* Are there feeding reliability issues with certain brands/models/magazines, etc.,
* Are the less expensive models (< $1,000 any good - range use mostly)? 
* Are certain brands more popular?  What about Olympic Arms/DPMS/Stag Arms?
* Are there brands or brand/models to stay away from?What should I know that I am not asking??

All help is appreciated.

Thanks,

Pat

1) If the AR is built to GI military specification, the triggers are all the same. If not, they will usually be better. Almost all AR type guns (whether pistol or rifle) will use the same trigger components, and will allow you to switch out to a better trigger later if you desire. Only the super custom rifles have proprietary trigger/hammer parts.
Barrels vary greatly. Current military M16 barrels are CHF (Cold Hammer Forged) and chrome lined. The military barrels are made for durability and long life, not for ultimate accuracy. I do not think benchrest shooters have chrome lined or hammer forged barrels. Twist rates also vary. I personally prefer 1-7 twist although I don't own one . RPM is what stabilizes bullets and not twist rate. A longer barrel will give higher velocities and therefor higher RPMs. You might need a 1-7 twist if you have a 14" barrel, but only a 1-9 if you barrel is 20".
Most upper receivers available today are flat-top M4 style. If you wanted an A1 or A2 style with fixed sights and handle, expect to pay 2x more for the upper section. The flat-top receiver allows you to easily mount optics or fixed sights. Lowers are basically all the same. They are all forged by one company (Cerro). Some lowers are billet machined, but they cost more, and are not as strong, but are supposedly more accurate.
Stocks, grips, and handguards vary widely. There are two types of carbine buffer tubes: Mil-spec and civilian. The mounting threads are the same, but not the diameter that the stock slides over. I prefer the mil-spec tubes because the threads are roll-formed, and stronger. The threads are the weakest part on the tube, not the tube diameter.

2) Some mags don't feed well. I prefer the stock GI 30 round aluminum mags. I have used some beat to hell mags in my M16 when I was in the Army, and they still functioned without a problem. When I see a mag malfunction at the range, it is usually a plastic magazine. I cannot use a 30 round mag in California, so I bought some stainless C-Products 10 rounders. They seem to work. If you are just range shooting, Magpul mags will work good enough. 30 round mags stick out and make shooting from a sand bag awkward. You may want to try a 20 round or 10 round mag at the range.
If your upper receiver has M4 cutouts, but your barrel does not, you might have feed problems. In tat situation it isn't the mags fault.

3) Yes the under $1000 guns are very good.

4) Popularity doesn't mean anything. I can usually out shoot most people who have high dollar boutique guns with my beat to crap gun. It is amusing seeing someone with a $3000+ rifle with optics that holds worse groups than my iron sighted A2. I have an Olympic upper assembly, and I will never by another one. It is a P.O.S., but it still works, so I have not sold it. Don't buy the name.

5) In general, Bubba's Backyard Gunsmithing should be avoided.

Since you don't know what you want, I suggest a flat-top carbine with 16" barrel, mid-length gas system, and A2 front sight. That would be the "Vanilla" version.


.

[larryh1108]

Very well written and informative reply.
Thanks.

[The_Shadow]

When I was looking at AR's I didn't want the high front military type sight or the top carry handle sight setups.  I was interested in a complete picatinny top rail continuing out to the end of the forward handguard.

To each their own as they can be configured in many ways.  People have various parts they buy and change their mind with especially scopes, sights and optics choices...also the handguards and accessories so looking over local forums or classified publications can be a source of options.

[my_old_glock]

When I was looking at AR's I didn't want the high front military type sight or the top carry handle sight setups.  I was interested in a complete picatinny top rail continuing out to the end of the forward handguard.

To each their own as they can be configured in many ways.  People have various parts they buy and change their mind with especially scopes, sights and optics choices...also the handguards and accessories so looking over local forums or classified publications can be a source of options.

One nice feature with the A2 front sight is it allows you to co-witness a red-dot, or you can just use the clamp on handle or a flip-up rear sight (MBUS ~$35). If you ONLY plan on using a scope, you don't need a front sight. The A2 sights are usually used with plastic handguards. When someone is using an aluminum railed handguard, they use a low profile gas block and no front sight. Plastic handguards are around $20-$30. Aluminum railed handguards are $150-$400+.


.

[sqlbullet]

You need an A2 style front sight under two conditions. 

1.  You are going to use iron sights. 
2.  You are undecided between irons and optics.

If you are certain you only want optics, buy a good one and call it good.  I have personally never heard or read of someone actually failing back to irons in a real life scenario.  Not saying it hasn't happened.  But, I think you are realistically better off spending an extra $100 on the optic than spending $100 on BUIS.

I put iron sights on my AR-10 358 winchester, and I love them.  Light, dependable, and plenty good for the range of that gun.

I put a Bushnell AR Optics 1X4 PCL Throwdown on my last AR-15 build.  It is a great optic, but dang is it heavy.  That gun weighs more than my AR-10, and it is because of that scope and mount.

You can get a free float tube for $30-$50.  I got mine from Model 1 sales.  In general they make junk, but it is hard to screw up a basic barrel nut and free float tube.

My go to rail is the UTG Leapers model 4/15 Super Slim.  I used to find these for $80-$90 but lately they have jumped over $100.  They have a monolithic style top rail, then sections you an add to the handguard wherever needed.  I like them better than quad rails as they are less bulky and don't chew up your hands.  The rail does get hot if you run 4-5 mag dumps quickly.

[yfdcap]

I just landed in Manila and have only about an hour to get ready to go to the office after my 20 hour flight.  I will post more later.

Short version is this.  Palmetto state is a good gun, but sometimes their customer care is a little rough.  Not that they won't make it right, it just might be slow.

Avoid the carbon 15, and plastic ar lowers in general at least for your first gun.  On the other hand, once you are swimming in the deep end some of the glass filled nylon options are fine.  I actually ordered 8 lowers from tnarms on Saturday.

Last three items. 

Barrels should be chrome lined, melonited or stainless steel.  Chrome lined chro-mo-v or ordinance steel lasts the best, but stainless is generally a bit more accurate.  Shadow gave you the skinny on twist, but to simplify, get 1:8 unless you are building a gun for 40 grain varmint grenades.  The 1:7 is really only useful in bolt guns as the coal for the 90 grain Bullets will make your ar a single shot.

Next, mil spec buffer tube.  If you love the stock that came on your ar this doesn't matter.  But be aware that a "commercial spec" is really not a spec at all.  It is the term applied to all buffer tubes that aren't mil spec.  They can vary enough that some stocks will rattle a bit.

Finally, bolt and bolt carrier.  Learn what properly staked gas keys look like and either buy one with them well staked or learn to stake them yourself.  This is a place budget builders will skimp.

Good luck with the addiction.  It is worse than 10mm.  I have 14 in my safe now in same state of build and 8 more coming.

Nice.

[bigdog72]

I have 15 of them in several different configurations, if you just want a range/truck gun as others have stated palmetto is the way to go, I have a few of them and they work just fine, as far as a good mid priced ar s&w makes a good weapon and my smith is my go to gun, if you want to go all out larue is the best imho, but they aren't cheap. the m4 clone with a 16" barrel is the most common variant, as far as mags any mil spec alum body or magpul brand for a plastic body will fit the bill just fine. never skimp on optics, and a trigger upgrade is the first thing I usually do, there is a wealth of knowledge at ar-15.com but be warned there is a ton of drama and bs to wade through as well, if your going to buy one I'd recommend picking one up soon, the prices and availability are really good right now and if that terrible clinton gets into office prices will surely spike. worst end get a lower and a bolt carrier group those seem to be the hardest and most marked up items after a shakeup.

[The_Shadow]

Buckeye 50, must have gotten busy or something, maybe studying on other sites! 

[Buckeye 50]

Guys:


Thank you all so much for your input.  It is VERY helpful and sincerely appreciated.


I think I will want to do more research than first thought before I pull the trigger on an AR.


Thanks again,


Pat

[sqlbullet]

Even if you plan to buy instead of build, I would highly recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Gunsmithing-AR-15-Patrick-Sweeney/dp/1440208999

Reading it provides a lot of insight into what makes a good AR a good AR, which can help you alot in picking a top shelf AR that doesn't break the bank.

[Rvrrat14]

All good responses.......

If its a shooter you're after, buy cheapest reputable brand.   Do homework on which one's use GI spec parts.  That's the ticket.

If you build, PSA is a good place to start.

1.  Good Barrel
2.  Good trigger
3.  Free float handguard
4.  Trued receiver
5.  Bedded barrel


AR's are fun, and as they say, Welcome to the BRD!