Barnes TAC XP 155gr SCHP

[Quick 2]

Just loaded 40rds of the 155gr TAC XP with the 10.2grs of 800X and I can't remember who made the comment about not being able to push these bullets to 1500fps because there wasn't enough room for more powder but I could have got at least 12grs with no problems. And going to Longshot would also help to get more volume for powder charge. Here is the problem for me anyways. The bullets are very long and have a long barring surface so is 10.2grs close to max on pressure? The bullets being about 80 to 85 cents each working up loads would be very expense. A 155gr SCHP at 1400fps seems to be the sweet spot for the performance of this bullet.

The_Shadow list the DoubleTap of having a C.O.A.L. of 1.2420 and being able to load the bullet to 1.260 would give you even more room to still have a good crimp on this bullet with it being so long. (And again thanks for all the hard work on the factory pull downs.)There is too many variables than just putting more powder in the case and having almost 2 hundreds of an inch for more powder would allow for someone to push these bullets faster if you are ok on pressure. But where are you on pressure? Even reloading these you are still looking at $1 a shot and that can get expense increasing 1/10th of a grain at a time to work up to the max checking for signs of excessive pressure.

I have often wondered why companies don't measure the energy dump on ballistic gel, that would not be hard to do and I believe it would give us better data on each bullet. I carried a 9mm for a couple of decades as my EDC as the velocities and bullet performance became better. Unless you are pushing a heavy bullet at high velocities a handgun isn't going to be the answer to stopping everyone with 1 shot. And I don't see me caring a Desert Eagle in 44mag or a X frame 500 S&W as a EDC.

When the 10mm came out I was shooting 200rds of full house 44 magnums every weekend, in the early 80's that was around 15-20 bucks with me reloading them. And a Dan Wesson with a six inch barrel was my EDC. The 10mm caught my eye and I was going to buy a Delta Elite when the FBI dropped the 10mm like a hot potato. The guns of the time just could not stand up to the pounding. Now we have polymer pistols in 10mm that run like a TIMEX.

So after saying all of that I'm asking you is the SCHP the best we have as of now? The 155gr TAC XP at 1400fps is putting out 675 ft/lbs of energy and is very controllable to shoot and the performance of the SCHP is consistent. Stopping a human isn't that hard to do with a well placed shot but you are not always going to be able to get a well placed shot the first round out of the barrel. Making a hole in a person stops then at some point the bigger the hole the sooner they stop. But when you add hydrostatic shock and cause a brownout or a blackout like a rifle round does even if its not a well placed shot I want to know if this is what is going on with the design and make of the SCHP? Lead is cheap I cast and reload so I can shoot as much as I can afford to. But when it comes to which is the best Copper or Lead I want that to be in my gun when my life or the life of my family is on the line. So far I see no differences in the placement of either JHP's or SCHP's. As the decades roll by the old adage of erring on the side of caution rings louder in my ears.

[DM1906]

I've been loading these bullets in many calibers, including 10mm, for nearly a decade out of necessity as my sidearm hunting load (CA Condor zone). My 10mm/155 Barnes M/LE loads chronograph 1495 FPS from my Glock with LWD 5.2" barrel. A bit faster from my 6.5" Blackhawk. Unless you have no other options, there are MUCH better powder and bullet combinations available for nearly any task. In my tests, 800X was quickly disregarded as a candidate, for several reasons, and well before 10 gr. I wouldn't chamber 10.2 gr. 800X under that bullet in any of my semi-autos. Kevlar gloves and ballistic face shield is recommended if you do. Better yet, use a Ransom Rest, with a looong trigger cable.

[The_Shadow]

The one that had me scratching my head was the Buffalo Bore loading of the Barnes 155gr SCHP...have a look at what was inside that one!   http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/buffalo-bore-barnes-155gr-tac-xp-pull-down/

[Quick 2]

Yeah 11grs of power pistol looks like it would be over pressure with the design of these bullets. The 800X load isn't bad to shot at all and it is Double Taps recipe.Not knowing the pressure of this load is what made me stick with the 800X. The one's I have fired show no signs of high pressure primer flatten but not pancaked brass looks normal. There is a lot more going on with this bullet than just adding more powder to achieve more velocity. LongShot would be a better powder but working up a max load is going to get expensive. LeHigh's line up just doesn't look that promising to me with over penetration and the fracturing hollow point have been around for years. The whole idea of a hollow point is to control penetration and dump all of it's energy into surrounding tissue causing the hydrostatic shock to surround organs causing massive bleeding and trying for the brownout ( where a person is stunted to the point of not being able to do anything momentarily). I am in no way force to use these bullets but what I have read and seen to me it is the next step for bullet performance. I don't put a whole lot of stock in Evan Marshall work because there are way to many variables. Some of the autopsies he released were very interesting. When LE that stayed with the 9mm but went to the +p or +p+ on autopsies released by Marshall there was hemorrhaging on the brains from a center mass one shot kill. This is a result of the hydrostatic shock from a 9mm round. Now the 9mm is around 400 ft/lbs of energy the 155gr at 1400fps is 675 ft/lbs add the performance of the SCHP no over penetration the hydrostatic shock of a HP better performance on barriers especially glass this is why I have decided to use these bullets.

[DM1906]

There is no hydrostatic shock at any (conventional) pistol velocities. Not even close. Pressure wave and/or temporary wound channel may be what you are referring. Hydrostatic shock requires velocities well north of 2000 FPS, and some claim much higher, in the neighborhood of 2800-3000 FPS.

I also use the Barnes 155 gr. M/LE bullet for other .40" cartridges and platforms. I have pushed it well past 2000 FPS. I know what it does to tissue and test media at those velocities. The picture doesn't change until crossing the 2200 FPS range. The only difference between about 1400 to 1800 FPS is penetration, which isn't linear. It declines, exponentially. At about 1400 FPS, the bullet is completely transformed to it's final dimensions, barring physical interference (such as hard objects). After that, it's only a matter of residual energy penetration. This may be desirable for game hunting, but likely a negative for urban defense with an excess of 12" penetration.

[Quick 2]

Anytime a moving object hits fluid there is hydrostatic shock proven by the ripples of a pebble hitting water. How much hydrostatic shock is what we need to know when a bullet from a handgun does, showing the effects on tissue. Out of a handgun there is a lot less than a rifle round agreed. And as was mentioned in an earlier post it is (thought) that a projectile has to move over 2000fps before generating hydrostatic shock is that any projectile? There used to be a 14 caliber rifle round with a bullet weighing 10grs and moving 3500fps but didn't do a whole lot of damage when it hit anything. It went well past the 2000fps but. I guess that is why it did not last long. Velocity is a part of what makes a bullet preform a big part but mass has a great part also. The LeHigh EP would be a awesome (to inspire fear) round if you didn't have to worry about how many people it went through before stopping. The LeHigh ED looks promising but there is even less known about this bullet than the SCHP. With Leigh's .380 Auto 85gr EP getting 14 to 16 inches penetration in 10% gel and making  a nasty permanent wound channel for a .380 why doesn't everyone go back to the 380 Auto? When I made this post I was hoping to generate a fact filled debate and more info to prove or disprove the SCHP. Not I have done this and I have done that but a good source of data to show what you are saying.

With the legal side of defending yourself, having the recipe to a factory round I can load myself for 1/3 the cost and can guarantee the QC of every round I load using the same brass, powder, and bullet. Ok all of you working on the factory pull downs I need primer id also (joking). I'm not trying to talk anyone into using the SCHP or trying to talk them out of using any other cartridge out there just looking for evidence that I haven't found yet.

[DM1906]

Semantics, terminology, and scientific (medical) description. All different. The slow ripples on water from dropping a pebble is a pressure wave. The immediate physical tissue damage from a passing bullet is a wound channel.  A temporary wound channel is tissue disruption that occurs as the bullet passes through tissue, and any lasting effects are dependent upon the amount of energy dumped by the projectile at the time and location of passing. At pistol velocities, this only occurs very close to the surface, if at all. Hydrostatic shock is tissue disruption, rupture and liquefaction adjacent to the temporary wound channel. This not like the mild pressure wave of a pebble dropped in a pool of water. It is more similar to a sonic boom that occurs within dense tissue. Ripple vs. tsunami. Mass at velocity. Mass is secondary to velocity, but both are required. Typical pistol projectile mass at typical pistol velocities does not add up. It is no surprise that a 10 gr. projectile at 3500 FPS was insufficient. At 272 FPE, it has less energy than a 9mm Luger. Of course, we are referencing  muzzle velocity. This to say nothing about velocity on target, or velocity in target (which is the key).

[Quick 2]

DM1906 I am not totally disagreeing with you but there is hydrostatic shock in all projectiles striking a human or animal. How much is what I would like to see bullet companies showing. All the things you mentioned about a bullet hitting tissue is what I am looking for. I agree totally that a handgun that someone is able to control in a SD situation is not anywhere near ideal. It sounds to me you have the data that could help a lot of people decide what does work and does not but we need more detail. There are to many internet Ninjas not saying you are one just want people like you who have been there done that and have the T-shirts to share what you know.

The projectiles we have today are a lot better than 20 years ago but working through all the hype and BS could be more easily shoveled away if people who know and can prove what they are saying shares what they know. when Evan Marshal wrote his book on handgun stopping power the one shot stops percentages were only if the one shot made the person stop what he or she was doing. I followed him for several years as he would post autopsies and the effects a certain caliber and projectile did to tissue. And several of those autopsies were of the 9mm and the bleeding on the brain from ruptured blood vessels in the brain from hydrostatic shock from a 9mm. But there was not enough data only the caliber bullet and that it was a center mass shot.

I have hunted all my life butchering everything I killed deer, squirrels, rabbits,coons, just about any wild animal that I was interested in have for the freezer so I have seen the effects of different calibers and different projectiles. Slaughtered hogs, cows and all of those were put down with a 22lr one shot instance kill.I  am in no way saying the SCHP is the perfect bullet but from the info I have read and it's been all I could find to me shows the SCHP to have an edge on a JHP. And you are right about where and how fast the bullet hits as the effects it has on anything. Worst shot I ever made on a deer was a quartering shot. Through the left shoulder, left lung exiting out the stomach entering back in the male area and destroying a hind quarter. 30.06 180gr soft point complete pass through. 75 yards on the side of a ridge me at the top and the deer going down at an angle. I made a grunt and he stopped and turned to look my way. I had to track that deer for a mile. He dropped half of his intestines after about 1/2 a mile. When I found him he was still alive and I put a 240gr JHP from a 44 magnum into him to end his suffering.

When I seen you were LE I thought if I picked at you a little you would start pouring out what you have seen to clean my clock. And I was hoping you would. I am very interested in what you have to say but in more detail than you have seen it. No personal info just what bullets have done and what they haven't. How many years LE were you? I'm guessing you are LE from the badge as your avatar haven't had the time to look at your profile.