Ammo MFG's you consider unsafely loading 10mm offerings

[Intercooler]

     Public opinion matters to probably at least a few of these. Express how you really feel about what you put through your firearms.

[Intercooler]

    I can't even vote on Armscor making me nervous with split brass or flattened primers since they backed off or fixed their problems.

[The_Shadow]

I think I would be more comfortable answering if the topic was which ones would I feel safe using...
Seeing how I use very little commercially loaded ammo, I full have to trust myself using my own handloaded ammo.  Of course this handloading thing has been going on since 1978 for me and since 1990 for the 10mm.

Mike McNett of Double Tap got his start loading to the 10mm enthusiast crowd, followed by Mike Willard of SwampFox Ammo and then Kevin Underwood of Underwood Ammo.  They have brought back the full ballistic potential of the cartridge to the customers.  While I have read stories of some issues of people using these commercial ammos I still would not feel unsafe using any in my guns.  Some people buy a gun and go shooting without fully understanding that not all guns are the same or equal.  I think this is why we are here on these forums discussing findings and comparing notes to understand the ins and outs of our favorite cartridge and what it brings to the party!

I have been completely enjoyed your reports of the ammo you have tested in your EAA Match gun.  The picture of rounds chambered in the Match vs, the Delta Elite tells a story all its own.  This is why I haven't stepped into the Delta Elite 1911.
Remember I bought some brass (as shot from your pistols) and I found it to be in good shape for reloading.  I think I only found one or two in the batch that I tossed after inspection, but I am ANAL about what I do when it comes to handloading.  I have seen range brass in bad shape and this is why I don't like to pay over half what new brass cost including shipping.  I made a trade swap for 1350 pieces of Federal 10mm brass and found 50+ split in the package, but these were FBI as shot in the HK MP5-10's and I expected to find some bad brass in that bunch.

I did purchase (private sale) some SwampFox after his passing as a keep sake and part of that purchase was three boxes of Bitter Root Valley Ammo.  Before that (2008) I bought an asortment of DT 9x25Dillon to test my conversion for my S&W1006.

I still need to purchase some Underwood Ammo (10mm and 9x25Dillon) just because I need to fully understand what Kevin is doing so I can duplicate the results for msyself. 

Now do I need to continually shoot the hottest ammo all the time?  Not really, as some warm target loads are a lot of fun for just plinking.  This is where casting alloy bullets, makes for ammo at near the cost of 22's for me! (primer & powder)

Best regards!

[4949shooter]

I am going to abstain.

Though I do think that some of the manufacturers are beginning to push the envelope too much. If you don't understand why I say this, just think of the ballistics of the original 10mm loads, and consider the fact that the guns we shoot were designed with these original ballistics in mind.

[Intercooler]

     I understand. I view it as all safe in mine but I also don't shoot the upper end 10mm all the time. Realistically I may shoot a mag out of one of the 10's of the good stuff per visit. If I'm doing testing it is however many to get the data needed. To the best of my knowledge Buffalo Bore has never backed off what they initially put out in the 10mm. DoubleTap indeed may but the more I test of their stuff I'm wondering if some of the claims of not meeting spec has more to do with the pistol, etc... not up to giving those results. Some may be on the edge for firearms not up to the task but hopefully the owners get them there. I now seem to know why the term "Lawyers loading the ammo" was coined and possibly why a drop in performance is warranted. I think it's good we have all levels up and down for people to choose I just hope we don't drive the upper end guys to back off if it really isn't needed. Their are different warnings even for Revolvers. The heavy Buffalo Bore is written on certain revolvers... Blackhawk, Redhawk, Dan Wessons, etc... that ammo should be used in.

[4949shooter]

Good point about the revolvers, which was something I was also thinking about while reading the other thread.

I also remember Mike from Swampfox loading down his 200 grain load specific to the Glock 29 after a certain issue developed. In the back of my mind I have been wondering how or if this will apply to the other manufacturers.

[Intercooler]

   No need to abstain. It helps to know which ones you may think are on the edge. DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore have been around for a good long time and the complaints on DoubleTap at least was suspect backing things down. Underwood is the newcomer and would want to know if people are scared in one way or the other.

[4949shooter]

You know I wanted to make a point without giving anyone a bad name. But it sounds like you are in contact with certain manufacturer(s), so I will offer my feedback.

Edit: Done.

[Intercooler]

    I don't hold my tongue to any of them and do talk with many (if they will hear me).


     PBR Ammo will be the next player giving us some good stuff. I hope I can get them some support for me tugging on them. They will be offering their 165gr FMJ in a 600LB load for $21.40 no set amount needs purchased. I think that will be the best deal out there in a real 10mm loading you can shoot everytime out... everytime. HPR was it then jacked themselves out of the ring.

Snippet:

James Collins

I was using your 10mm 200gr at the range today, purchased at the GR Brown show 10/13 using my new Glock 20 and a EAA Witness.
Massive muzzle flash, airblast, flames and accuracy. The gun was very clean afterward; very impressed. Keep up the good work!

Parabellum Research likes this..

Parabellum Research Hi James, glad to see that you enjoyed the 10mm ammunition. We think the FMJ loading in the Perfect Practice series is a good balance of 10mm power, accuracy, and cleanliness. It is good to hear that you think so too.

At the prodding of Jesse Adkins, we are going to offer our FMJ loads at top-end velocities for those who like to shoot them. So, be on the lookout for even more 10mm fun.


So yea I prod. I hope we can show them we want the gesture to continue through some orders their way.

October 16 at 11:14am

[4949shooter]

That is a good price.

[Intercooler]

It's Starline brass too. They are just waiting for their brass order and why I haven't said anything about it. It will be the best bang for the buck out there I think.

[enidpd804]

I still need to purchase some Underwood Ammo (10mm and 9x25Dillon) just because I need to fully understand what Kevin is doing so I can duplicate the results for msyself. 



Best regards!

Wade, you've been really helpful to me and others on this and other websites.  I particularly remember your help with some handloads a few years ago.  As a thank you, I'd like to send you a box of Underwood 180's if that's okay with you. 

[wifecallsmegrumpy]

Surely in the litigious society of current times boutique ammunition manufacturers would be loading to the lowest common denominator ? Without adequate warnings about what pressures are in the load and the firearms they are safe to use in it must breach duty of care everytime property and persons are injured ? 

[Intercooler]

   I'm confused about it all. I thought we wanted high performance ammo but now it seems we really don't. I need to look at Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap because I don't think they put any warnings out. I sent Kevin a note on the pressures and all. See what he says maybe he will take them backwards.

[The_Shadow]

enidpd804, I appreciate the offer, but I really don't need a whole box, what I want is to take them apart and demystify the actual load...Actually I did read where someone took the 180 grain XTP load apart, it contained 9.6 grains of 800X as measured. 

Here is my take on the Underwood ammo, Kevin is in business as an commercial ammo manufacture.  His ammo still needs to fit the SAAMI MAP (maximum average pressure) for what ever cartridge/bullet combination he sells, therefore I feel his ammo fits in the pressure parameters.  If his ammo did not fit these pressure parameters, then just like any manufacture the liabilities would come back to haunt them.

Intercooler, I do feel Underwood is delivering a product that works at the upper edges of performance vs. pressure, not bad for the velocity junkies, unless something goes wrong!  Therefore any slight change, such as bullet set back, or extra powder deviation or guns that are having issues like less than positive lock up, lack of chamber support or fouled bore issues, could produce very different results.    These situations could happen with any ammo made even handloaded stuff.

Now Star Line brass, this brass is soft, it is sold as a handloaders brass so it can be re worked back into shape several times before it becomes too brittle.  Not a bad thing, unless you are running a barrel that lacks so much support that starts to flow  to fill the voids (SMILE) or worst blow out.  I hosted some pictures (Newbies to picture hosting & I study all I can about blown casings) for a few people that had blown out cases so they could in fact show what happened in their gun.  That one I belive was BVAC when they change from StarLine to Armscor Brass.   I have seen several Delta Elite guns exibit the ring of expansion around most of the casing and some were blown out due to a lack of chamber support.  What I think what is happening is the swollen case is pushing the slide back to unlock early, increasing unsupported areas.   

In closing here I will say, people need to understand their equipment, the gun as a whole, to include form, fit, function, proper maintenance, lubrication, the recoil system, chamber support, type of rifling.  They need to inspect spent casings to verify that the gun is working as designed with any ammo used.