10mm or 45 Super

[ram1000]

I have a Kimber Eclipse 10mm for deep woods animal repellent, but often wondered if a Glock 21 or 1911 in 45 Super might not be a better choice as there are much heavier (250 gr.) bullets available, and my limited understanding is the wider bullet is preferable for damage to the animal all other things being equal???

[sqlbullet]

All else equal, yes.  Bigger holes are better.

But...

A 250 grain 45 super has the same sectional  density as a 200 grain 10mm.  But it lags behind a few hundred feet per second.  And a 10mm heavy enough to drop to 1050 fps has a much higher sectional density.

So all else is not equal.  Nothing wrong with 45 super but it is not a10 mm topper.  460 Rowland would be the round to trounce the 10 in a 45 caliber.

[The_Shadow]

The 45 Super and 45 Roland are respectable cartridges in their own right.  Just like the 10mm the gun needs to be setup for the cartridge impulse for reliable feed and function. 

[The_Shadow]

Well we were on this together sqlbullet...I got to watching the end of the new program on History channel Iron & Fire and posting was delayed some...Oh well great minds think alike.

[ram1000]

So my 10 is effectively the better gun to carry???  I think I have some 220 gr hard cast Underwood and the new 140 gr Extreme Penetrator bullets.  Would one of these be a significant improvement on the other???

[The_Shadow]

With good shot placement either should work well...however the 220 cast may carry more punch deeper or completely through...

[BEEMER!]

I weighed this heavily a little while ago. I wanted a dedicated "woods gun" and narrowed it down to a .45 Super or buying another 10mm Glock to replace the one I never should have sold in the first place.

A few observations:

There are effectively no .45 jacketed hollow point bullets designed run at .45 Super levels, which is around 1100 FPS, if I recall correctly. So if your goal is a deep penetrating JHP, this is counter productive. There are few 10mm JHP's designed to run at 10mm velocities, but at least there are some. If you are running cast, none of that matters. It would be perfectly reasonable to run a heavy, hardcast .45 Super for your woods load, and normal .45 ACP load as your "town ammo." I wanted to have the ability to hunt with the 10mm with JHP's that were actually designed to work at those velocities.

As SQLbullet pointed out, the 200 grain 10mm bullet has the same sectional density as a 255 grain .45 bullet. I don't think there is a .45 bullet available that has the same sectional density as the 220 grain 10mm bullets. I like sectional density.

While the 10mm is a sort of "niche" cartridge, it still has a pretty big fan base. The issues with getting various guns to run well have been fairly well ironed out, and there's lots of load data and such out there. The .45 Super just hasn't been as popular. That may change over time.

My main carry gun is a Glock, and I felt there was an advantage to sticking with that platform. There are people who have gotten the .45 Super to run in Glocks, but I wasn't thrilled about the idea. Properly set up, it runs well enough in the 1911 platform, and the HK USP will run it out of the box. I appreciate both those platforms. There is just a limit to the number of platforms I'm able to support.

Also, Sonny Crockett carried a 10mm.

I think if it came down to it, either cartridge is a fine idea for "deep woods animal repellent." The hard cast 10mm loads get close to three FEET of penetration in ballistics gel. The .45 Super can be expected to get similar. My decision to choose one over the other was driven more by logistics than performance.

If I already owned a 10mm, I wouldn't feel the need to also get a .45 Super. But if it's for fun, go for it.

Sonny Crocket carried a Bren Ten for awhile but it was actually set up for 45 ACP.

  http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id5.html

[sqlbullet]

I think I have some 220 gr hard cast Underwood and the new 140 gr Extreme Penetrator bullets.  Would one of these be a significant improvement on the other???

The 220 grain Underwood will make circles around a 250 grain 45 Super.

220 gr Underwood 10mm:
    Muzzle Velocity:  1200 FPS
    Muzzle Energy:  703 ft lbs
    Sectional Density:  .196 lbs/in²
    Momentum:  37

255 gr Underwood 45 Super:
    Muzzle Velocity:  1075 FPS
    Muzzle Energy:  654 ft lbs
    Sectional Density:  .179 lbs/in²
    Momentum:  39

As you can see, the only spec where the 45 super has an edge is in momentum.  And, to you that ultimately means more recoil for less penetration.  I think the 220 grain Underwood load is a VERY solid woods load.  It trails only slightly behind a 255 grain 44 magnum from a 4" barrel.

[my_old_glock]

I chose the 10mm over the 45 Super for carrying in the woods. I get 2 extra rounds per magazine with the 10mm (15 vs 13). If I use the +2 Pearce mag extension I can get +3 rounds (17 for 10mm; 14 for 45 ACP/Super). I tried 45 Super, but it just beat the fudge out of my gun. There is no reason for me to shoot that caliber anyways.

Swift makes some A-Frame bullets for 45cal pistols. They might work real good at 45 Super velocities since only the front mushrooms, but the rear section stays intact.

[45BBH]

I've got both and they both have their strong sides.  The 45 Super is more powerful, with a well supported barrel and a comp the .45 Super can be loaded to 460 Rowland levels.  From a Gen4 21 w/5" KKM I've shot anything from 185gr XTP's to 1600 fps to 250gr at 1350 fps to 300gr at 1160 fps.  The key, other than needing a well supported barrel and comp is that you have to use 45 Colt bullets in upper end loads in order to take advantage of the velocity as regular ACP bullets are too fragile at those speeds.

The problem exists with 10mm too, most .400" bullets are designed around typical .40 velocity.  A few work pretty well ran faster, but unfortuntately for the 10mm doesn't really have nearly the bullet options the .45 has.  But the advantage of the 10mm is less recoil as full power .45 Super/Rowland feels like you're beating the snot out of the Glock.  Plus, full power 10mm is readily available online, you don't see any full power .45 Super.

For both the 10mm and .45 Super though, I think they work best when ran warm but not nuclear, trying to push a .400" bullet an extra 100 fps faster which won't increase lethality, seems pointless to me.  I also wouldn't want to carry around 250gr XTP's running 1350 fps, too much recoil for acceptable follow up shots, so a 250gr Gold Dot running around 1050-1100 fps makes a lot more sense. 

Just my .02

[ram1000]

Thanks for the physics lessons.  I understand the conclusions at least.  Sounds like I would be wasting my time working with a 45 super.  I don't reload so I have to be able to make a choice out of factory loadings. 

[sqlbullet]

...I don't reload...

That seals the deal for me.  Midway USA has 40 different catalog listings of 10mm auto ammo.  It has 5 listing for 45 Super.  If you don't handload, definitely 10mm between those two.

[DM1906]

10mm Auto is a respectable choice, despite arguments to the contrary. The same should be said of the .45 Super. IMO, of course. Either will get the job done.

......There are effectively no .45 jacketed hollow point bullets designed run at .45 Super levels......

This is only true if you are limited to commercial offerings. If you are a handloader, a small step outside the box opens up as many, if not more, options as any common caliber. Shopping for only .45ACP bullets is a handicap. They are only designed for velocities 2/3 that of .45 Super, and about 1/2 that of .460 Rowland. So, completely disregard .45ACP bullets and get to work on a real solution. "Lighter" bullets designed for .45LC (Ruger) and .460 SWM fill that gap quite well. My favorite for the .460 Rowland is the XTP, and the 200 and 225 gr. FTX with the point leveled off (essentially an XTP with a flat plug, like Critical Defense/Duty). This doesn't include the wide selection of lead bullets (Beartooth, for one), which can be optioned with gas checks. Of course they are more expensive, but the .45ACP design bullets do just fine for plinking. Heavy plated HP's and FP's (X-Treme) make great big holes in anything they hit, and are cheap by any comparison.

[cwlongshot]

...I don't reload...

That seals the deal for me.  Midway USA has 40 different catalog listings of 10mm auto ammo.  It has 5 listing for 45 Super.  If you don't hand-load, definitely 10mm between those two.

Agreed, the 10MM makes more sens to me overall, but as more  ammo offerings means allot...

I looked hard at these three calibers when looking for a auto hunting gun.  I was leaning 10MM since buying a DE when they first came out. I ended up deciding on the 10MM and I am glad I did. But bother are good choices and cover the same ground quite well.

Good luck in your choice,
CW

[ram1000]

I have never needed to concern myself with the number of different offerings for a given gun.  If it has the one specific offering available that I want/need then that's good enough.  It seems that both the 10mm and 45 Super are more and more on the offering plate anyway so I can find plenty of variations to practice with and plenty of variations to use suitable for camping/bears or whatever is out there.  I carry a compact 1911 for simple CCW anyway.