9x25 Newbie Questions

[trackcage]

Hey all, I've enjoyed reading about some of the history and load work up for this round and want to start hand loading it myself. I already have a Lone Wolf 6" barrel for my G20 and 100 rounds of factory 9x25 ammo (125r TMJ).

I've read the pulldown threads and would like to mimic some of the Underwood rounds to the best of my ability (not necessarily the same bullet weight at the underwood rounds I already purchased).

I am intrigued by the 2000 ft/s velocity mark, so I'm thinking I'll go with a 90gr or maybe 115gr pill. I noticed that in most threads, a jacketed hollow point (usually Hornady XTP) is used. Why is that? I understand the velocity is too quick for a plated projectile - which is what I generally use for other calibers when I'm loading up cheap/plinking loads. Could I use a cast lead or hi-tek coated lead projectile? What about a FMJ projectile in the ~90gr range? I'm sure there is a good reason here, but a newbie like myself doesn't know...

Secondly, I'll probably use Longshot powder, since it seems to be a favorite go-to for the 9x25 cartridge. In another thread here, I saw screenshots of an old loading manual that mentioned the use of slower powders, like H-110. I have a big jug of this and would love to use it up if it will do the job. In my research, it seems the use of slower powders like that were used to help run the compensator on older race guns. So on a non-comped gun like my G20, am I barking up the wrong tree using H-100? Will it even work well if I decided to go with a light, 90gr projectile?

[trackcage]

Looks like I should have put this in the wildcat sub forum. Mods, feel free to move if appropriate.

[The_Shadow]

Trackcage, welcome to the forum!  The Hornady bullet has a long straight sides which is better for accuracy and bullet retention inside the short case neck of the 9x25 Cartridge.  Tapered and ogive style bullets as seated may not allow a good diameter at the crimp to hold the bullets securely enough to prevent bullet setbacks!

The best powders have been LongShot and even Blue Dot to push these bullets in the short barrels.  H-110 and W296 are slow and without the heavy crimp they don't seem to develop well in these shorter barrels.  A lot of the load development using these powder were with longer barrels and used in guns with compensators to tame muzzle rise in competitions.

I have shot many of my own cast bullets sized at 0.3565" with quality Carnuba Red lube.  I am considering trying to power coat my bullets some day, but the stuff I'm using has worked well.

I do need to got to the range and test some loads I have made up using CFE, Autocomp and BE-86 to see how they perform in both 9x25 nd 357Sig.  These are faster burning powders, but have shown good performance yields.

Be careful and please share your results.

[trackcage]

Thanks Shadow! I was also thinking (haven't tested this to know for sure) that the amount of H110 I would need would likely barely, if at all, fit in the case without a compressed load. Definitely seems like for my application I should stick to a faster powder. I have longshot, power pistol, and CFE So I should be good to go as far as powder is concerned.

My question around projectile choice is based on cost. XTP's are pretty pricey just for punching paper at the range. Any reason a FMJ round of the same bullet weight (generally cheaper) would not perform as well for basic range use?

[The_Shadow]

That is understandable and given the extra velocity is why I went with the ZERO 38Super bullet from Roze Dist. using 121 HP 0.356" in bulk.

http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RZD&Category_Code=ZJB

[DM1906]

You can't get there from here, with H110/W296. Even a maximum compressed charge falls well short in velocity. There just isn't enough case capacity. If a huge volume of gas is what you want, it'll do that. AA9 is similar, although it is workable with heavier bullets (124-147 gr.). The highest velocity I was able to get with the 90 gr. XTP was with 2400. While it would near 2,000 FPS in my 6" barrel, the bullet didn't hold up, not even close. At that velocity, the bullet explodes immediately upon contact with any solid media, such as wetted newsprint (phone books) or water. If you want to go into that velocity area, FMJ and X-Treme plated FP and HP's did best. Avoid the 9mm RN bullets for the reasons Shadow stated, the ogive is too long. Berry's plated fail before reaching the target (it sheds plating). The best combination I've found is the 115 gr. XTP with Blue Dot. Compressed 2400 (108%) was more accurate and consistent, but fell about 100 FPS short of BD. An added bonus is, the 115 gr. XTP holds up well, and has a cannelure. Crimping into the cannelure prevents bullet pull or setback.

For an economical target load, I would recommend X-Treme HP or FP bullets and Unique or HS-6 powder. Very clean and consistent. BE-86 and 700X appear to have some considerable potential with lighter bullets, but I haven't tried them yet. Autocomp and Powerpistol, IMO, are too gassy for the case to bore volume ratio to be effective. They didn't work well for me in .357 Sig, either.

[trackcage]

DM1906, I was under the impression you would have the same issue you mentioned with plated bullets fragmenting on impact with xtreme plated bullets. Wouldn't the velocities of the 9x25 cartridge be far too high for any plated round - be it Berry's, xtreme, or others? Have you had good luck with xtreme bullets and the 9x25 cartridge?  I've used xtreme a ton with great results in other, slower moving rounds, but assumed they wouldn't work well in this application. Would love to hear first hand experiences

[DM1906]

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I get no profit from endorsing the bullets, but the X-Treme plated bullets defy logic. I've used them for 9x25 as fast as I could make them go, as well as their .40 180 gr. bullets in my .38-40 at near 1800 FPS. They survive the trip, but they are soft lead swaged cores. The plating does its job and remains intact. Berry's, and to a worse degree, Rainier, begin to fail beyond transonic. I use them also for .460 Rowland (200 and 230 gr. HP's) and so far, they're doing great. Thicker plating and greater adhesion, I suspect, but I can't say for sure. They just work.

[Pablo]

Well that's good to know actually. I shoot xtreme .40 very hot and they seem to hold up quite well.

[trackcage]

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I get no profit from endorsing the bullets, but the X-Treme plated bullets defy logic. I've used them for 9x25 as fast as I could make them go, as well as their .40 180 gr. bullets in my .38-40 at near 1800 FPS. They survive the trip, but they are soft lead swaged cores. The plating does its job and remains intact. Berry's, and to a worse degree, Rainier, begin to fail beyond transonic. I use them also for .460 Rowland (200 and 230 gr. HP's) and so far, they're doing great. Thicker plating and greater adhesion, I suspect, but I can't say for sure. They just work.

Thanks again for sharing your experience. Last question - were you using the standard xtreme plated or their heavy plated (HPCB) variants?

[DM1906]

The X-Treme bullet plating performs its job as it should, better than most I've used. They are NOT jacketed, so don't expect them to perform like a jacket. Different animals, each with unique positive attributes. I use the HPCB bullets. HPCB =  Hollow Point Concave Base. No reference to more "heavy" that I'm aware of. Good bullets, nevertheless.

[trackcage]

Heavy plate concave base

[DM1906]

OK, I've not seen that before. Still, they state, "All Hollow Points are Heavy Plate Concave Base.......". I've used most of their bullets in nearly every caliber they offer and the plating seems consistent, regardless of caliber or design. Although I've not actually measured the plating thickness, the FP's and RN's appear the same as the HP's, caliber for caliber. I have no less than 6K of their bullets within my reach at this moment and can compare any at will. An inadequate product description doesn't change my opinion or experience with them, however, it explains what I thought was mismatched images.

[trackcage]

Too many acronyms 

I think ultimately I will load up some xtreme plated and some FMJ from a different brand and see what works best for me. I had originally wanted to go with a 90gr bullet, but the lowest xtreme goes is 100 gr in their 380 section.

[DM1906]

Given a choice, I'd much rather use FMJ bullets for target loads. They are much easier to recover and cleaner to process, especially on steel targets (I recycle the lead). Plated bullets are an economic alternative. The X-Treme 100 gr. .380 RNFP is an excellent bullet for .380, and does as expected when driven to .357 Sig and 9x25D velocities. The Berry's 100 gr. RNHB is better for these, as the hollow base makes for a longer bullet w/o sacrificing case capacity (although they just splat to dust at 1800+ FPS). The 90 gr. XTP is what it is, and I use it for .357S, but it might as well be a frangible in 9x25D (I have yet to recover more than BB size pieces of one). Even the .357S turns them inside-out, with less than 60% weight retention. I'm not aware of any alternative bullets this light that will survive the velocities we are pushing them. If they shoot accurate, the bullets design makes little difference. Perhaps a monolithic solid, but they're priced beyond practicality (the Barnes Tac-XP is available in 80, 95, 115 and 125 gr.).