10mm bullet testing

[DM1906]

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

That guy needs some SERIOUS help in learning how to be more concise.  What finally made him stop ... a power failure?

Yeah. I read it over 2 days. It was worth the time. It wasn't that he was that long winded. That "article" is a compilation of (short reply) posts in a very long discussion thread, over a long period of time. This also explains some of the redundancies. I feel sorry for the poor bastard who went through that ten thousand post thread and compiled it!

So for those that bothered to read it all you might see that practical results ( deaths) seem to be different than those obtained by gel testing. 
The FBI and other forces keep changing there minds over which is the best caliber to choose, when it might seem that the .357 Mag is still better at stopping than any other.  This is one reason that I have chosen the 10mm since it is close in performance to the 357.  However, I still carry my scandium S&W 340 a lot of the time.  Even if I don't hit the target the flash will scare the crap out of them! Them being perbs of course.

My reading of it was, essentially, a peer review. I'm a retired coroner, having investigated many homicides, suicides, and firearm related assaults, although his level of experience and case frequency far exceeds mine. His opinions were based on similar conditions as mine, essentially an unofficial average take on decades of personal-professional observations. I concur with his conclusions, as to the effectiveness of calibers, including the collective ineffectiveness of the 9mm, and the vast superiority of the .45ACP and any magnum. Analog testing, in my experience, has very little similarity with actual results on real persons. I still do the testing, but for comparative and personal curiosity reasons alone. What I carry and rely on for personal defense is not, necessarily, what performs best in gel, water, or wetted newsprint, etc. Ultimately, most arguments regarding bullet design, bullet mass, velocity are moot. Hits are hits, and misses are misses. As has been said repeatedly, carry as much power and capacity as you can bear and use effectively. Any weapon, no matter how "purdy" or big it is, will be logged as personal effects if you can't wield it effectively in every conceivable situation. Remember, the defensive shooter doesn't choose the venue or conditions of the event. The only choice you have to make, is to engage or not engage.

[Bazzer]

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

That guy needs some SERIOUS help in learning how to be more concise.  What finally made him stop ... a power failure?

Yeah. I read it over 2 days. It was worth the time. It wasn't that he was that long winded. That "article" is a compilation of (short reply) posts in a very long discussion thread, over a long period of time. This also explains some of the redundancies. I feel sorry for the poor bastard who went through that ten thousand post thread and compiled it!

So for those that bothered to read it all you might see that practical results ( deaths) seem to be different than those obtained by gel testing. 
The FBI and other forces keep changing there minds over which is the best caliber to choose, when it might seem that the .357 Mag is still better at stopping than any other.  This is one reason that I have chosen the 10mm since it is close in performance to the 357.  However, I still carry my scandium S&W 340 a lot of the time.  Even if I don't hit the target the flash will scare the crap out of them! Them being perbs of course.

My reading of it was, essentially, a peer review. I'm a retired coroner, having investigated many homicides, suicides, and firearm related assaults, although his level of experience and case frequency far exceeds mine. His opinions were based on similar conditions as mine, essentially an unofficial average take on decades of personal-professional observations. I concur with his conclusions, as to the effectiveness of calibers, including the collective ineffectiveness of the 9mm, and the vast superiority of the .45ACP and any magnum. Analog testing, in my experience, has very little similarity with actual results on real persons. I still do the testing, but for comparative and personal curiosity reasons alone. What I carry and rely on for personal defense is not, necessarily, what performs best in gel, water, or wetted newsprint, etc. Ultimately, most arguments regarding bullet design, bullet mass, velocity are moot. Hits are hits, and misses are misses. As has been said repeatedly, carry as much power and capacity as you can bear and use effectively. Any weapon, no matter how "purdy" or big it is, will be logged as personal effects if you can't wield it effectively in every conceivable situation. Remember, the defensive shooter doesn't choose the venue or conditions of the event. The only choice you have to make, is to engage or not engage.

Thanks for your reply and the benefit of your experience.  I have always maintained that a good set of legs and some common sense outweighs any caliber of bullet.  But since, in these days of common place violence, the choice of weapon is important to me.  I live in a Californian city where we have a very large population of homeless 50% of which are convicted felons released from jail because of our dear governor being a liberal and not wanting to spend money on more prisons. 
So I am forced to carry.  In the home my main weapon for defense is a Mossberg 500.  I know it works since a few years ago I had a bear enter my house and rob me of food!

[Blades]

No mention of 10mm.   
I think I prefer the balance of speed and bullet weight with the 10mm over the slower .45 ACP. A 200 grain HP at 1100 fps has to be a little better than a 230 grain HP at 770 fps -- I may be wrong, someone correct me if I am.
I admit I get caught up in the ballistic gel testing, but I do know shot placement is more important then fancy bullet designs and caliber. 

[Mike_Fontenot]

The ballistics of the .45acp just don't seem consistent with its reputation.  And I've heard some hunters' stories who have used it and various other handgun calibers (at close (self-defense-like) distances) on various critters of approximate human-like mass, and they have not been at all impressed with .45acp ... .40S&W was better, 10mm was MUCH better, and .44mag was off-the-charts.

[DM1906]

Thanks for your reply and the benefit of your experience.  I have always maintained that a good set of legs and some common sense outweighs any caliber of bullet.  But since, in these days of common place violence, the choice of weapon is important to me.  I live in a Californian city where we have a very large population of homeless 50% of which are convicted felons released from jail because of our dear governor being a liberal and not wanting to spend money on more prisons. 
So I am forced to carry.  In the home my main weapon for defense is a Mossberg 500.  I know it works since a few years ago I had a bear enter my house and rob me of food!

I'm familiar with the area. The Mojave Desert is my home away from home. I used to camp/ride in the California City area until they moved the city limits 20 miles in every direction and required local OHV tags. The last time we were there it was more crowded than downtown L.A. We've been all over the desert, but prefer the Ridgecrest-Randsburg (Spangler) area the last few years. It's only crowded there during major holidays, and the entire area is open-travel (no required trails, BLM, or protected areas). I live on the central valley side of the Sierras, and the situation with the unfriendlies is about the same (everywhere in the state, now).

Good choice for home defense. I have handguns within reach from just about anywhere, and often on me indoors, or any time I go out the door. But, they're only there for the time the shotguns and/or rifles are out of reach. The area I live is so remote, if a bad guy actually reaches my house, they didn't get here by accident. They have 2 options if they get this far. About-face, or neighborhood watch (backhoe).

[DM1906]

The ballistics of the .45acp just don't seem consistent with its reputation.  And I've heard some hunters' stories who have used it and various other handgun calibers (at close (self-defense-like) distances) on various critters of approximate human-like mass, and they have not been at all impressed with .45acp ... .40S&W was better, 10mm was MUCH better, and .44mag was off-the-charts.

"Various critters of approximate human-like mass" are not human. The .45ACP is NOT a hunting caliber, unless you're hunting humans. It is quite formidable for that duty, as proven by its "reputation", despite the inconsistencies with comparative analog research. Fact is fact.

[Mike_Fontenot]

I was surprised just now to see that Underwood's .45acp+P was higher energy than their .40S&W (which was not listed as +P ... no .40 was listed as +P at all (??)).  Underwood generally tries to load full-spec for everything.  Several years ago, a chart I saw showed .40S&W a bit higher energy than .45acp (both standard pressures, I think).  And 9mm less energy than either.

[DM1906]

I was surprised just now to see that Underwood's .45acp+P was higher energy than their .40S&W (which was not listed as +P ... no .40 was listed as +P at all (??)).  Underwood generally tries to load full-spec for everything.  Several years ago, a chart I saw showed .40S&W a bit higher energy than .45acp (both standard pressures, I think).  And 9mm less energy than either.

Not a surprise, really. Mil Spec .45ACP (21K PSI) 230 gr. ball ammo is 835 FPS for 356 FPE. Many LE 230 gr. HP (type) ammo is north of 900 FPS (413 FPE). SAAMI spec full pressure (35K PSI) .40SW 180 gr. HP is 1015 FPS for 411 FPE. .45ACP+P can easily exceed that.

[Bazzer]

Ok, here is one of the reasons for wanting a better more realistic test than ballistic gel.  If you review this page and others on the brassfetcher.com website http://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone%20Simulant/9mm%20Luger%20Bone%20Test.html
You will see that most hollow point bullets simply do not work if they hit bone before gel.  It's stated that there is a 80% chance of a torso shot hitting bone causing a deep penetration, maybe a complete pass through without any major injury.  Believe me I know since I was shot in the upper arm and did not realize it for some while, well at least not until the adrenaline rush subsided. It's on this basis that I believe the standard FBI test is sorely in need of updating.
Just for your interest check out the results of the Glock 460 Rowland conversion on the site. I might just get one for my Glock!


Interests include Fly Fishing, Archery, Shooting and many more.  British Military Veteran.