Is this Brass unsafe ?

[ss 396]

Hello everyone, just came across your site while researching 10mm loads. I have been reloading about 16 yrs just got a Glock 20sf so this is my first try at 10mm. So here is what i have, i purchased some Sig Elite 180 fmj so i could try the gun and have some brass to reload. I bought some Winchester 180 JHP, i used Win large primers,looked through my manuals and on your site first tried 8.8 grains Power Pistol 10 rds then went to 8.2 still had some brass looking like i have pictured. 

Did not feel like a hot load, Alliant has specs for 9.3 Power Pistol with a 180 bullet this brass concerns me no bulge in the area you see just the normal bulge around the whole base which measured .435 but the outline sure looks like the start of a Glock bulge The Glock is a brand new gen 3. I have some new Starline brass have not tried it yet is it possible Sig brass maybe weak?

Or am i too hot, some of the loads i have seen here and other areas have me being in the lower loadings. I do have a chrono but have not tried it on these yet just checking function and inspecting brass they all fired fine did not sling brass excessively far. here are some pictures

[The_Shadow]

The distinct line is a start of a shearing on a molecular level and can not be ironed out...I have done test on brass just like those and it survived but it is not something you will want to trust your fine firearm or risk injury for a $0.17 piece of brass.

There are projects that you may find a need to use old brass for.  Setting up of dies.  Ear buds, Jewelry, card cutters, etc.

Be safe!

[ss 396]

Thank You Shadow, i already set them aside i was afraid to reuse. Do you think my load is too hot?

[ss 396]

I might add the factory Sig ammo had none of these marks. I tried some Power pistol at 8.0 grains and still had a few although not as bad as what i pictured. the barrel looks to have decent case support although after measuring before and after fired it does have a generous chamber lol.

[The_Shadow]

ss 396, Also Welcome to the forum!  I have read where others had seen the "SMILE" in their initial firings of the SIG ammo.

Are you familiar with pass through sizing?  We have an entire section on Pass-through sizing on the forum.  This will not fix the situation this brass has either.  But the process is worthy to help things function more reliably

The Glock factory barrels will allow case expansion to 0.4340" at which point the casing will start to "SMILE".  I run a non captive 22 lb recoil spring in my G-20SF and even with the factory barrel and testing of the SIG Ammo and various other HOT / High Impulse ammo I load and tested haven't gotten very many "SMILED" cases.

If you want to study what is being sold commercially please study the pull-down section to review what has been documented.

[The_Shadow]

BTW I am shooting 200 grain bullets with that load...

Power Pistol 10mm Load info tested July 6th 2008
Hornady 200 grain XTP COAL 1.26"
8.0grains Winchester cases
300-350 CCI primers
1170-1200 fps velocity S&W 1006 5"
1080-1130 fps velocity Glock 29 3.78"

[ss 396]

Thank You for the welcome Shadow, i have been thinking about the pass thru sizing for this round,your information on the pull downs is awesome! This site has been very informative, i am new to the 10mm and want to make sure i get it right.

I'm not wanting to load nuclear loads by any means but do want to have full potential of this round. I saw were you had mentioned the 22lb spring i may try that the slower unlocking of the slide could help some maybe.

My Lyman 49th does show 8.0 grains with an 180 as being max, but Alliant shows 9.3 i will try some with the Starline brass and see what i get.

Thank You for your help Shadow much appreciated

I really like this forum alot, wealth of great knowledge on the 10mm here.I don't want to buy a Lone Wolf or Stormlake barrel just yet but would like the brass to last more than one loading

Thanks again for your help.

[ss 396]

adding my OAL is 1,255 books say 1,250 max is 1,260 thought i woud go in the middle as to not add any extra pressure from being to short on the OAL.

[DM1906]

As Shadow said, smiled brass may be good for something, but not for reloading, and it can't be fixed by any means.

Other things to consider are bullet types, seating depth, brass metallurgy, case capacity, and environmental conditions. Not all 180 gr. bullets are the same, and produce different pressures, even when loaded to "book" specs. If the load you use is tested with FMJ bullets (often the case), you can expect to see higher pressures with HP's, all else being equal. The brass should not "smile" at or near max SAAMI pressure. If it is, you are likely exceeding it. Perhaps try the same (minimum) load in a known, good piece of brass, such as new Starline, and work up until you see similar symptoms.

Heavier recoil springs will not change battery unlock timing, in any way. They can delay initial slide movement (take-up), but battery unlock will occur at the same moment during firing. A heavier spring can also help to reduce rearward slide travel velocity (battering), at a cost of increased return slide velocity (good or bad, it depends on the conditions at both ends). All of this occurs AFTER ignition, combustion, and the completion of the firing cycle. Changing any of these factors will not effect the cause of a case smile.

[tommac919]

Is it possible that the chamber on that barrel is just a bit looser than normal ??  ( normal for a glock )
can it be mic'ed?

[DM1906]

Is it possible that the chamber on that barrel is just a bit looser than normal ??  ( normal for a glock )
can it be mic'ed?

I don't think so. The smiles pictured look quite typical, for Glock smiles. Also, "looser" chambers generally equate to lower pressure, and not, necessarily, a greater opportunity for a smile.

[Benchrst]

1: I'd try the same load with CCI 300. WLP is a 'both' primer, and seems to fall between non-magnum and magnum, at least in my experience.
2: Bullet composition can have a significant impact on pressures. Specifically with Winchester's 180 JHP I was seeing case expansion #s that half a grain higher load produced in MG's JHP.

I'll state that I've never loaded WLP's w/ Power Pistol, so it may be a powder not really effected by the 'mag' treatment.

[The_Shadow]

One thing that can and does raise pressures is too much oil in the bore.  Therefore if a bullet is fired down a barrel that is oiled up, it can raise pressure, but usually only for the first shot.

Also copper, lead or alloy smear or fouling can raise pressures via restriction and friction.

Brass being too soft can flow, but these were said to be once fired.  Therefore they should start to work harden as they are run through the dies.  But that may not occur in just one or two loadings either.

Faster burning powders can expand the brass snapping it to full expansion instead of the softer outward push of a slower powder.  Power Pistol usually measures very well, but that depends on the powder dispenser system.

Here is something to consider, why some Glocks don't SMILE a casing, while others will SMILE with the same loading.  Is this a result of lockup of the angled surfaces that hold the barrel and slide locked while ignition occurs?

One thing that was measurable on my test of recoil springs, was the amount of spring pressure holding the slide and barrel in lockup using different recoil springs.  Yes the springs met their rated weight at full retraction, but there were also increases in the amount of weight needed to pull the slide and barrel from lockup that was measurable.

There are just so many variables it becomes difficult to pinpoint just where the issue lies, but it may well be the brass and load used because of the similar results.

[ss 396]

Thank You everyone for the good information, will try some of the new Starline cases this wknd and see how it goes.

Probably going to be pretty windy here this wknd so i probably wont get the chrono out.

I used my Lee powder measure with the Power Pistol man it measures beautifully and i checked each one on my beam scale they were all right on.

I would still like to play with the recoil spring as Shadow suggested that may help.

I am using a very light taper crimp just enough to straighten the bell out.