Powders for accuracy

[fltbed]

Or, why can't I get Longshot to group well?

One of the few things the late Jack O'Conner ever stated, that I agreed with, was "only accurate guns are interesting guns".
I've always done my handgun testing at 50 yards cause I believe that's the distance where you can easily distinguish the good loads from the exceptional ones.  For me, acceptable accuracy means a 4"-5" group at 50 yards cause that's about as well as I can shoot an open sighted handgun anymore, even with proper corrected lenses.

In my last few months loading for the 10, I've tried various 180-200 gr bullets with Power Pistol, Blue Dot, BE-86, #9, WSF and Longshot.  So far, I've gotten excellent accuracy from #9, (with decent velocity) acceptable accuracy with Power Pistol, BE-86 and WSF, with mediocre velocity's.  Longshot's always given me the highest velocity's but the worst accuracy. 
In my quest to get Longshot shooting at least acceptable, I've been testing a lot with it lately.  When testing today with the Hornady 180 gr XTP, I got the best chrono numbers yet out of Longshot.

180 gr XTP
New Starline brass
CCI #300 primer
OAL 1.255
9.0 Longshot:
Rock: 1268 f.p.s. ES 9 SD 4
G40:  1304 f.p.s. ES 10 SD4

All good right?  I get down to the targets and find the Rock shot a 10" group and the G40 only put 4 rounds on paper into an 11" group.  No idea where the fifth one went to.
If I had any hair left, I'd be pulling it out.

Any suggestions on what to try next?  I'm running out of ideas of things to do with this powder. 

Jeff

[sep]

I won't be of much help to you as I am going through the same thing myself. You wrote Accurate #9 gave you excellent accuracy and decent velocity. Maybe you need to tweak that combination of components?

In my preliminary testing with 200 grain WFNGC Doubletap and Beartooth bullets, Blue Dot has given me the best accuracy although the only other powder I have tried is Longshot. I just picked up some Accurate #9 and I have some 800X but my load development is on hold til spring...too cold here in interior Alaska to shoot outside.

I'll be watching this thread with great interest and please post your results once you get this sorted out.

[sqlbullet]

While I experiment with other powders, this is why Blue Dot is my mainstay.  Very good, but not best velocity.  Very, very good accuracy.  Good economy.

[fltbed]

Sep:  I've ladder tested #9 with the 180 gr & 200 gr XTP and have gotten excellent accuracy.  (especially the 200 gr load)


When the weather breaks, (by the looks of things might be this weekend! ) I plan on doing ladder tests with different magnum primers to see if I can get a bit more velocity without sacrificing accuracy.

sqlbullet: I need to revisit Blue Dot.  I only tested it with the 200 gr XTP.  The only thing I don't like about Blue Dot is the muzzle flash.  I like to shoot paper, not set it on fire with my ammo.

Longshot, on paper, has everything going for it.  Excellent velocities with a predictable pressure curve and low muzzle flash.
When you get near max, it has superb ES & SD numbers on the chrono.  I just wish it would group better than my shotgun.

Jeff

[BillinOregon]

That's a head-scratcher on the Longshot. Sure seems promising. Hope you can sort it out.

[fltbed]

Thanks Bill.
I've seen similar results loading for rifles.  Powder A produces high velocity with tiny extreme spreads and low standard devotions and groups poorly.  Powder B produces average velocity, big ES and SD numbers but groups bullets in tiny clusters.  With rifles, a lot of the accuracy issues can be corrected with bedding or adjustable barrel weights.  (like the old Browning B.O.S.S. system)
With autoloading pistols, it's a bit more challenging.  (and frustrating)

Jeff

[RDub01]

Hey Fltbed
Well my experience with my G20-SF mirrors yours to a tee.. with 180gr bullets.  Power Pistol and AA#9 have given me the best groups consistently.  800-X has come through occasionally depending on the bullet.. But it's a PITA to work with.  Blue Dot is fantastic with heavy cast bullets in my gun(KKM 4.6"SS), but with jacketed bullets not so spectacular. Although Blue Dot is probably the best all-around best powder to use in 10mm.. Using CCI350 primers I get the most spectacular fireballs out the barrel   

Longshot always yields the highest velocities but never groups well as others. And when at max pressure, micrometer readings seem a bit erratic.. I don't feel very comfortable using Longshot for max loads.

Now I had some surprisingly good results with 3N38..  I need to work with this powder some more, maybe switch up primers.  Can't say for sure, but this powder might rival Blue Dot for best all-around powder..

BE-86 will be a good performer I believe, but I haven't worked with it enough to come to any conclusions.  Accuracy so far has been so so..  Worked up to 8.9grs with a Hornady 180gr. FMJ at a little over 1200fps with acceptable pressure.. And that was in rather coolish weather.

What ever powder BuffaloBore is using in their 180gr JHP loads would be a good one, but haven't determined exactly what it is.  I'm not aware of anything on the shelves presently that yields this level of performance and acceptable pressures with 10.0grs of powder that looks like that..

http://www.handgunforum.net/range-report/32001-glock-20sf-buffalo-bore-180grjhc.html

As for the mediocre loads as you call them.. I just refer to them as 80%ers..  Power Pistol,  AA#7 and recently discovered N350 is really good.  Some of the tightest Sd I've gotten with any powder.

Well that's my two cents..

10mm seems to be a niche onto itself as far as a perfect powder match. 

[fltbed]

Thanks RDub01, I was beginning to think I was the problem.  Seems like everyone sings the praises of Longshot, posting pics of tiny, almost one hole groups, at allegedly 25-50 yards.  (I suspect those distances are closer to 15-50 feet.)

You may be right about 3N38.  I remember helping a customer develop loads for his 1006 back in the 90's with 3N37 & 3N38.
If I can ever find some at a reasonable price, I'd love to test N105.
Around here, VV powders start close to $40 a pound.  Maybe someday.

Say...think that might be N105 in that BB 180 gr pull down?
VV load data shows 9.9 max with a MV of 1280.  I've never seen N105 but the data would put it in the ballpark.

Anyway, the rain has stopped for a few hours and since I'm off this afternoon, I'm gonna pack up and head over to the range to do more testing.

I'll hopefully have something interesting to report.

Jeff

[RDub01]

Hey Fltbed
N-105 is an extruded type powder. I tested this a while back with 180 and 200gr. bullets and the higher end loads were heavily compressed.

My feeling about the BB load.. It's a slower burning Power Pistol or BE-86 type hybrid.  These two powders are very close to each other in 10mm I'm finding out..  If they were a bit slower burning they would be ideal. 

We can only dream...

Hope you get some shootin in..

[The_Shadow]

Hey Fltbed
N-105 is an extruded type powder. I tested this a while back with 180 and 200gr. bullets and the higher end loads were heavily compressed.

My feeling about the BB load.. It's a slower burning Power Pistol or BE-86 type hybrid.  These two powders are very close to each other in 10mm I'm finding out..  If they were a bit slower burning they would be ideal. 

We can only dream...

Hope you get some shootin in..

That is where Blue Dot is in the spectrum of things...it begs to be pushed to the upper end of its pressure for best performance and clean burning! 

[fltbed]

SUCCESS!   Finally!

After reading through the ammo pull down sections looking for data to load the Xtreme 220gr with, I came across these:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/double-tap-230gr-hard-cast-pull-dowm/
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-hard-cast-pull-down/
And decided to give Longshot another go.

I only worked up to 7.4 gr but from looking at the cases, I'm nowhere near max.

Xtreme 220 gr TMJ
7.4 gr Longshot
Starline brass
CCI 300 primer
OAL 1.255
Velocity G40      1028 f.p.s. ES 17 SD 6  4.25" group @ 50 yards!
Velocity RIA FS 1073 f.p.s. ES 17 SD 8  4" group @ 50 yards!

The sun was peeking out of the clouds when I tested the Rock so that may be why it was reading so much higher.  I had one reading of 1055 f.p.s. and the other four were all in the 1079-1089f.p.s. range.  Still could have been the lighting.

I also took the last of my Blue Dot and tried sqlbullet's pet load with the 180 gr Xtreme HP and shot some of the smallest groups I've ever shot.
180 gr Xtreme HP
10.4 gr Blue Dot
Starline brass
CCI 300 primer
OAL 1.255
Velocity G40      1188 f.p.s. ES 44 SD 20  1.6" @ 50 yards
Velocity RIA FS 1164 f.p.s. ES 37 SD 16  2.25" @ 50 yards
That's as accurate as any of the bullseye guns I've ever built.
Now I just have to find more Blue Dot!

Jeff

[sqlbullet]

This is why I buy it by the 5lb jug.  And wish I could find 8lb's!

Glad it worked so well for you!

[The_Shadow]

Another happy Blue Dot shooter...What can I say!   

Higher ES & SD but the tightest groups go figure! 

[fltbed]

I forget where I first heard the quote but as I grow older, I agree more and more.

"Velocity if fine...Accuracy is final"


Jeff

[gadabout]

Hope you don't mind but I liked your quote so much I am using it in the forum. Thanks  Craig