Do you agree with this Police shooting of the Dog?

[DizzyDean]

I feel like he reacted with his gun too quick. If I was in the situation I probably would've given the pooch a swift kick, then maybe pepper spray. If that didn't work then maybe the pistol, but that would be last resort.

I also agree with Intercooler, if someone shot my best friend in my own front yard, shits probably going to get real, very fast. (especially if the person in question was in plain clothes and hadn't introduced themself)  Also bear in mind I train my own dogs so they wouldn't be squirting out like that, so were dealing with a theoretical situation on multiple levels here...

[4949shooter]

I would be angry if someone shot my dog in my own yard too.

Another 4949 story and I will stop boring you guys...

I think it was two years ago on the evening before thanksgiving. My son was home from college, and as many kids do he was out with his friends. I went to bed. Around 2 AM I get woken up by the sound of a car outside, and I see a spot light go on. I get out of bed and look out through the blinds, and see a police car from the next town over. The first thing I think of is maybe something happened to my son (I didn't realize until later that he was in his room sleeping at the time).

So the officer comes to the door and I greet him. He doesn't know I am also a police officer but it doesn't really matter. So he asks me if my wife just left to pick up my son. I said, "No, she is in bed." He looks at me disbelieving like, and then I see him look past me through the doorway, so I turn around and see my Doberman coming out of the room and down the stairs. Now, I know my dog was just coming out to say "Hi." But the officer didn't know this. I took control of the dog immediately, because I saw the fear / uncertainty in the officer's eyes.

But I will have to say, if I would have been irresponsible and let my dog run over at the officer, and he would have shot my dog (poor Cooper), it would have been my fault and my fault alone.

Anyways, my son was home thankfully, and it was a case of mistaken identity. And Cooper didn't get shot. 

[Intercooler]

  DO WHAT!!! So if your Dog approached the officer you are okay with him gunning it down




   I gotta get out of this one! Guns are your last line of defense and I expect an even higher level from LEO's in resorting to them!!!!

[4949shooter]

  DO WHAT!!! So if your Dog approached the officer you are okay with him gunning it down




   I gotta get out of this one! Guns are your last line of defense and I expect an even higher level from LEO's in resorting to them!!!!

Easy does there buddy. I said I am responsible for controlling my dog. That's all I am saying.

[Geeman]

Is an armed member of the general public allowed to shoot the dog in the exact same situation?

What would the officer do after called in because a salesman shot the dog? 

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that question, and why would the shooter in this case be handled differently?

In my state, there is the Milwaukee PD that is trained to eliminate the dog if it is a possible threat.  In the same geographical area there is the Milwaukee County Sheriff Department that teaches how to read the animal's actions before taking that action.  It ALL lies in the training. 

For the comments above that talk of giving ground or running, its the wrong reaction for a dog.

First there is the friendly one.  It will keep on coming looking for attention.

Second is the typical dog protecting its property that will stop out of physical reach and growl, snarl, and bark to intimidate.  The only threat is if you run, give ground rapidly, or turn your back.

Third is the dog that is simply going to attack.  A single 40 lb dog simply isn't a match for a man that size.  A swift kick would separate the dog's intention and pepper spray would end an attack in almost all instances. 

Officer over-reacted and put others at risk. It could have encouraged retaliation by the property owners.  It didn't have to happen.  I REPEAT.....  IT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN!!!!

Greg

[4949shooter]

Agree it didn't have to happen, maybe from both sides as you suggest.

An armed citizen has as much right to defend himself/herself as a law enforcement officer does. The only difference is that the law enforcement officer is not obliged to retreat, and may use force on force in order to achieve a lawful objective.

[Intercooler]

Wrong!

             I can't go onto someone else's private property and shoot their Dog regardless of the threat.

  The only time in my life I had the Maryland State Police show up at my door was over something similar. In my old house I had battle with the people living behind me as they used my gate and my shed to fence in their yard with two Dogs. They also bridged across an easement I pushed my mower and trash cans through from 1991-2013 when they did this. I had asked them several times and myself + neighbor volunteered to put in a gate setup at the existing easement. They insisted they would do it later and that day never arrived! I finally went over to their house and told them I needed my gate opened up for these activities and if I did so, the one that snapped through the fence at me might come onto my property prompting me to shoot it, should it try attacking! The lady started getting livid with me telling me to leave her property and she was calling the COPS.
  I went around front on the steps and waited for them to show up, because I knew she would for sure call (she's rather nuts herself). When they arrived, I explained exactly what was said and they said it's well within my right to open my gate and even shoot at them if:

- They were on my personal property
- I felt threatened for my life

   They left me stating they were going to go over to tell her the same and that they needed to restrain their Dogs within their property via their own fencing (not using my shed and double gate).

    I decided to not try opening my gate, since I knew we were moving shortly and put a gate in my neighbors fence to the left to venture around front with trash/mower. Trust me, I thought about it since the white one always had teeth gnashing through the fence when I was back there.

Some good reading:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html

[4949shooter]

Wrong!

             I can't go onto someone else's private property and shoot their Dog regardless of the threat.

  The only time in my life I had the Maryland State Police show up at my door was over something similar. In my old house I had battle with the people living behind me as they used my gate and my shed to fence in their yard with two Dogs. They also bridged across an easement I pushed my mower and trash cans through from 1991-2013 when they did this. I had asked them several times and myself + neighbor volunteered to put in a gate setup at the existing easement. They insisted they would do it later and that day never arrived! I finally went over to their house and told them I needed my gate opened up for these activities and if I did so, the one that snapped through the fence at me might come onto my property prompting me to shoot it, should it try attacking! The lady started getting livid with me telling me to leave her property and she was calling the COPS.
  I went around front on the steps and waited for them to show up, because I knew she would for sure call (she's rather nuts herself). When they arrived, I explained exactly what was said and they said it's well within my right to open my gate and even shoot at them if:

- They were on my personal property
- I felt threatened for my life

   They left me stating they were going to go over to tell her the same and that they needed to restrain their Dogs within their property via their own fencing (not using my shed and double gate).

    I decided to not try opening my gate, since I knew we were moving shortly and put a gate in my neighbors fence to the left to venture around front with trash/mower. Trust me, I thought about it since the white one always had teeth gnashing through the fence when I was back there.

Some good reading:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html

I have only been in law enforcement for 26+ years. 12 of those years I have been a supervisor.

But perhaps I know nothing about the lawful use of force. Perhaps Intercooler, you could teach me something.

Until that day comes though, I will continue to do things as I have been trained, and as my 26+ years of law enforcement experience tells me.

Thanks for all your schooling.

[DM1906]

Wrong!

             I can't go onto someone else's private property and shoot their Dog regardless of the threat.

  The only time in my life I had the Maryland State Police show up at my door was over something similar. In my old house I had battle with the people living behind me as they used my gate and my shed to fence in their yard with two Dogs. They also bridged across an easement I pushed my mower and trash cans through from 1991-2013 when they did this. I had asked them several times and myself + neighbor volunteered to put in a gate setup at the existing easement. They insisted they would do it later and that day never arrived! I finally went over to their house and told them I needed my gate opened up for these activities and if I did so, the one that snapped through the fence at me might come onto my property prompting me to shoot it, should it try attacking! The lady started getting livid with me telling me to leave her property and she was calling the COPS.
  I went around front on the steps and waited for them to show up, because I knew she would for sure call (she's rather nuts herself). When they arrived, I explained exactly what was said and they said it's well within my right to open my gate and even shoot at them if:

- They were on my personal property
- I felt threatened for my life

   They left me stating they were going to go over to tell her the same and that they needed to restrain their Dogs within their property via their own fencing (not using my shed and double gate).

    I decided to not try opening my gate, since I knew we were moving shortly and put a gate in my neighbors fence to the left to venture around front with trash/mower. Trust me, I thought about it since the white one always had teeth gnashing through the fence when I was back there.

Some good reading:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html

I have only been in law enforcement for 26+ years. 12 of those years I have been a supervisor.

But perhaps I know nothing about the lawful use of force. Perhaps Intercooler, you could teach me something.

Until that day comes though, I will continue to do things as I have been trained, and as my 26+ years of law enforcement experience tells me.

Thanks for all your schooling.

Didn't make sense to me, either.

There's only one answer to a charging pit bull. Sad and unfortunate, but fact is fact. Pet or no pet. Private property or no. If you have a pit bull that charges "friendly", you better fix that, or someone else will. If that were a burglar, he'd still be off the hook. On duty uniformed ("casual" uniform, but still uniformed) LEO with a lawful presence is no-contest. Unleashed and no secure fence is a loser for the property/pet owner, every time. Same end result. Been there. Done that. More times than I care to recall.

[Intercooler]

  Law enforcement might be able to, but not us standard citizens. That's what I was trying to say. If you have a law that you can show me saying I can please post it.

[Geeman]

There's only one answer to a charging pit bull. Sad and unfortunate, but fact is fact.

That's B.S......

There are options.  Lots of options.  I can say if that was an aggressive pit, I would have been just fine with OC spray.  First the dog would have been a field goal attempt, and if it would have been sprayed if it had re-entered in attack, which I doubt it would have.

In my entire life I'd guess I've backed down a thousand dogs that weren't happy with me being around, had to kick or block perhaps half dozen, and never had to spray a single one.  I'm confident I wouldn't of done the same thing had I been that individual. 

Lets look at what that officer accomplished that day...

He killed a family dog in front of that family.

He placed the family in harm's way by shooting toward a hard surface in line with the door.

He caused a family to absolutely hate the police for the rest of their lives.

He caused those two girls PTS and lots nightmares in coming nights.

He caused a neighborhood to not trust the police to do the right thing.

He likely cost the City a few tens of thousands of dollars trying to defend a bad decision.

There is a HUGE difference between that situation and having to take down a suspect in his home with a dog defending its owner.  One answer, my ass.  Just who do you serve anyway?

Greg

[DM1906]

  Law enforcement might be able to, but not us standard citizens. That's what I was trying to say. If you have a law that you can show me saying I can please post it.

The laws are the same, LEO or civilian. If you are in the area lawfully, you are every bit lawfully able to defend yourself. A civilian has an added ability to defend oneself, in many cases, even when not lawfully present (such as a burglary). This is especially true in the bluest of blue ambulance-chasing-lawyer states. If you have a law that you can show me saying you can't, please post it. "Negligent discharge of a firearm in a residential area" laws are nullified by self defense, if that self defense is otherwise lawful. Defending yourself against a charging pit bull is lawful. It's easy to say "I would not have done that", when you weren't there. The officer's actions in the video I saw, while not perfectly, tactically ideal, was absolutely justified. Unless he had prior knowledge, or other factual indicators, he really had no other choice. Also, to say he was negligent with the direction of his shots, is irrelevant. He fired 3 shots. None of them were errant. What "could have happened" is irrelevant. His reaction was admirable, from a tactical view. I've had the (very) unfortunate duty to destroy pit bulls with a .40SW. One shot was NOT effective enough, quick enough, in any case. Hindsight is always 20/20, and allows infinitely more time to evaluate a situation than the mere milliseconds allowed of the officer. Every OIS jury instruction includes this requirement of consideration, and was/is upheld by numerous lower and Supreme Court decisions.

[Intercooler]

   I will have to look into it and possibly ask an attorney here in MD. It just flies in the face of common sense at this point until I find out that I could cross someone's fence and if their Dog tries to take a bite... I can pop it!

   Very good point about the ND not counting against you in an attack situation. Gotta love all these laws that are up to interpretation!

[DM1906]

There's only one answer to a charging pit bull. Sad and unfortunate, but fact is fact.

That's B.S......

There are options.  Lots of options.  I can say if that was an aggressive pit, I would have been just fine with OC spray.  First the dog would have been a field goal attempt, and if it would have been sprayed if it had re-entered in attack, which I doubt it would have.

In my entire life I'd guess I've backed down a thousand dogs that weren't happy with me being around, had to kick or block perhaps half dozen, and never had to spray a single one.  I'm confident I wouldn't of done the same thing had I been that individual. 

Lets look at what that officer accomplished that day...

He killed a family dog in front of that family.

He placed the family in harm's way by shooting toward a hard surface in line with the door.

He caused a family to absolutely hate the police for the rest of their lives.

He caused those two girls PTS and lots nightmares in coming nights.

He caused a neighborhood to not trust the police to do the right thing.

He likely cost the City a few tens of thousands of dollars trying to defend a bad decision.

There is a HUGE difference between that situation and having to take down a suspect in his home with a dog defending its owner.  One answer, my ass.  Just who do you serve anyway?

Greg

OC vs. pit bull? You go with that. It's obvious you've never done it. It doesn't work. Ever. If you are far enough away to consider that as an option, you have that distance/time to consider other options, such as retreat (if it is an option) or cover.

Kick a pit bull? Go ahead. I know of several who tried. Even at (only) 40 pounds, all you'll do is piss it off, and use up VERY valuable reaction time. And, once it is on you, you remove the ability for your backup, if you have one, to do anything to help you, without risking further injury or death to you. Yeah. Good idea.

I don't care what the "advocacies" have to say about them. All dogs are not created equal, and size does not matter. A Kel-Light dropped between the ears of a 150# Rot can be effective (requiring no further action). A 50# pit bull? No way! Rot's don't like OC, and will hesitate or turn away almost every time. Pit bulls don't. And in 3' or less? No way. Once "in" a bite, they stay that way until disabled or they get pulled off with a mouthful of whatever they had.

As for your list of what was "caused" by the actions, it was "caused" by the pet owner's failure to restrain that pet. None of this would have happened if the dog didn't lunge out the door. With no audio, it's hard to know what really happened. After he knocked, it appeared he became alarmed about something (possibly doggy nails running across a tile floor, or growling), as he backed up and covered his weapon (S.O.P., BTW). He didn't retreat/draw until the dog was already out and closing the distance. You pass your judgment according to a very limited video representation and the opinions of extremely liberal op-eds. I'll wait for the investigation.

[DM1906]

   I will have to look into it and possibly ask an attorney here in MD. It just flies in the face of common sense at this point until I find out that I could cross someone's fence and if their Dog tries to take a bite... I can pop it!

   Very good point about the ND not counting against you in an attack situation. Gotta love all these laws that are up to interpretation!

If a dog "tries" to bite, or bites, you have the right to defend yourself, by whatever means that may be reasonable. If you are lawfully carrying a firearm, and lawfully present, then that defense is lawful. However, you, as with any LEO, assumes responsibility for any unreasonable collateral damage or injury. Simply, you wouldn't be liable for divots in the walk, but may be liable for injury due to ricochet, for example. That's a huge gray area, in any case.

Don't get me wrong, here. I don't agree or disagree with this, and I don't dislike dogs (love dogs, actually). I do dislike irresponsible dog owners. There just isn't enough information available, and no investigation info has been released. The media bias is obvious (I read about 6 different media reports, all essentially the same). I'm very surprised (and disappointed in some cases) at the condemnation offered by some folks here, with no more information than I've seen.