Spring weight

[Sailormilan2]

 I have put together a 10mm, based on a RIA Tactical 45 acp frame.  I currently have it set up with a 23# mainspring, flat bottom firing pin stop, and a 23# recoil spring.  I had started with a 20# recoil spring, but my empties were landing about 20 feet away.
I don't want to beat the frame up, so would it be better for me to go with a 25# main spring, and go back to the 20# recoil spring?

[10mmfan]

I use a 18 1/2lb recoil spring, a flat bottom fps and a 25# mainspring in my full size ria 10mm. My commander has a 20lb recoil spring and a 26# mainspring

[sqlbullet]

I run a 25# main and 18.5lb recoil as well.  Also a flat bottom firing pin stop.

Your frame will be fine.  That huge block of steel the slide hits is made for it.  1911tuner at the 1911 forum likes to make a point of shooting a 45 with no recoil spring just demonstrate that the frame will be fine.

The slide lock pin, link and link pin on the other hand, not so much.  That is why you don't drop a slide on an empty gun, and why you should be concerned about heavy recoil springs.

I would up the mainspring to 25# and if you still are concerned about your empties take a file to the ejector.

[Reverendpdp]

I'm joining this conversation to perhaps get enlightened about spring weights. 
Pretty soon I'll be experimenting with my RIA Commander-sized 10mm.  The stock recoil springs are 24#. 
You guys seem to be going considerably lighter and I'm trying to understand why? 
Are you shooting lighter loads?  Do you swap springs when your loads change?

I'd like to practice with standard manufactured ammo, Armscor, Sig, Fed. Am. Eag., etc., but would like to have it be reliable with the stronger loads too, Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Doubletap.  If you don't mind weighing in, I'd like to understand this better.  Regards.

[sqlbullet]

First, you have to understand and acknowledge that a 1911 gun can and will suffer harm if you release the slide on an empty gun.

I've shot competition all over the USA and not once did any RO command me to drop the slide on an empty chamber.
Once the gun is shown as being clear easing the slide down into battery is in no way a safety infraction unless you break other safety infractions that are specified in the rules of the match.

As for dropping the slide on an empty chamber, anyone that understands metalurgy and the efects of crashing hardened steel together will discontinue that practice.
The 1911 pattern gun can and will be damaged in many different areas if the user continues to drop the slide on an empty chamber.

For those that believe it does no harm, keep doing it, it helps keep gunsmiths in business.

Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

(http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-406353.html)

With that understanding out of the way up front, we can start to explore some questions and answers.

Why?  Crash hardening is one.  The link pin takes alot of that beating, and it is a weak component.  Next up is the slide stop pin and barrel link. All of these are parts take a beating when the slide goes into battery.  The faster it goes the more beating they take.  And they are being beating in a vector not ideal for their shape.  Shear in the case of the pins.

Now consider what gets impacted when the slide is going the other way.  Impact of the slide dust cover to the frame recoil block.  If you look at those parts, the recoil block in the frame is massive compared to the barrel link/pin and slide stop pin.  And while the dust cover looks alot thinner, there is more metal there due to diameter, and the vector of force is compressing a cylinder, just like stone columns on the colosseum, and those things have been up more than a week.

Too often we get worried about the wrong parts of our 1911's, and don't consider that reciprocating parts take a beating at both ends of travel.

A number of years ago I read about Ned Christiansen of Michiguns doing some testing on 10mm Auto.  He was looking at recoil springs.  Hist tests compared the wear and tear on a shok-buff fired X times in a stock 1911 45 ACP, versus a 5" 1911 in 10mm with various recoil, hammer springs and firing pin stop profiles.

He concluded that for a full size 1911 in 10mm the optimum was a 25 lb hammer spring, a flat bottom firing pin stop and an 18.5-19 lb recoil spring.

The hammer spring and flat bottom firing pin stops are huge parts of this equation.  The first thing the slide has to do is cock the hammer.  A very large amount of slide velocity gets taken up in doing this.  Increasing the hammer spring a little helps, but that flat bottom firing pin stop helps a bunch.  It dramatically decreases the amount of leverage the slide has on the hammer, by moving the force much closer to the fulcrum.  The action starts to feel like a compound bow with big cams.  During this one small section of travel, it is VERY heavy, then not too bad.

I have found this combination to stand up to everything I throw at my gun.  It is reliable and handles the full spectrum of 10mm loads without issue or hardship.

In a commander, I would bump the recoil spring 2 lbs to 20-21 range.

[Reverendpdp]

First, you have to understand and acknowledge that a 1911 gun can and will suffer harm if you release the slide on an empty gun.

With that understanding out of the way up front, we can start to explore some questions and answers.

Why?  Crash hardening is one.  The link pin takes alot of that beating, and it is a weak component.  Next up is the slide stop pin and barrel link. All of these are parts take a beating when the slide goes into battery.  The faster it goes the more beating they take.  And they are being beating in a vector not ideal for their shape.  Shear in the case of the pins.

Now consider what gets impacted when the slide is going the other way.  Impact of the slide dust cover to the frame recoil block.  If you look at those parts, the recoil block in the frame is massive compared to the barrel link/pin and slide stop pin.  And while the dust cover looks alot thinner, there is more metal there due to diameter, and the vector of force is compressing a cylinder, just like stone columns on the colosseum, and those things have been up more than a week.

Too often we get worried about the wrong parts of our 1911's, and don't consider that reciprocating parts take a beating at both ends of travel.

A number of years ago I read about Ned Christiansen of Michiguns doing some testing on 10mm Auto.  He was looking at recoil springs.  Hist tests compared the wear and tear on a shok-buff fired X times in a stock 1911 45 ACP, versus a 5" 1911 in 10mm with various recoil, hammer springs and firing pin stop profiles.

He concluded that for a full size 1911 in 10mm the optimum was a 25 lb hammer spring, a flat bottom firing pin stop and an 18.5-19 lb recoil spring.

The hammer spring and flat bottom firing pin stops are huge parts of this equation.  The first thing the slide has to do is cock the hammer.  A very large amount of slide velocity gets taken up in doing this.  Increasing the hammer spring a little helps, but that flat bottom firing pin stop helps a bunch.  It dramatically decreases the amount of leverage the slide has on the hammer, by moving the force much closer to the fulcrum.  The action starts to feel like a compound bow with big cams.  During this one small section of travel, it is VERY heavy, then not too bad.

I have found this combination to stand up to everything I throw at my gun.  It is reliable and handles the full spectrum of 10mm loads without issue or hardship.

In a commander, I would bump the recoil spring 2 lbs to 20-21 range.

Well thank you sir for all the time you put into this response.  It makes a lot of sense. 
So when companies like Colt supply their Delta with a 22# RS, and Rock Island ships their's with a 24# RS, are they doing this for functional reasons?  Do they ship them with heavier springs to help speed up the break-in period, expecting users to lighten the RS's later?  Or is there a more sinister motive?

[The_Shadow]

I think there is a design difference of the non ramped vs the ramp style barrel that also comes into play with the situation!
Correct me if I am wrong but that is what I gather from the two style types.

I have heard that the Flat Bottom Firing Pin Stop helps to making some slide timing advantages during recoil, but never really fully understood why, thank sqlbullet!

[sqlbullet]

I don't think they make any difference on slide velocity, at least that matters.  A ramped barrel may weigh 1/8 and ounce more, but that weight difference is really small in the grand scheme of things.  About 1% difference in slide velocity.  Once the barrel is resting on the frame (about 0.25" out of battery) there is no difference at all.

All other things equal, if you were to test 100 1911's with frame ramps (e.g. non-ramped barrels) for 10K rounds each, and 100 1911's with barrel ramps, you would see a small, but measurable statistical bias in reliability go the frame ramp, aka non-ramped barrels.

But, in a high pressure round like 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 Super or 38 Super (IDPA Major loading) you want the small advantage in case support, especially if you shoot max loads.  The ramped barrel trades a small amount of reliability for more safety margin in high pressure.

[Reverendpdp]

Alright so I just received my new Wolff Recoil Springs for Commander sized 1911.  Some of the springs are about 1 inch longer than the stock Rock Island spring.  I'm assuming this is ok? 
Also the 22# spring I'm going to try feels stiffer than the supposed 24# one that came with the gun.  Is there a way to measure the actual weight of each? 

[The_Shadow]

I used a digital fish scale to measure the springs in my Glocks.  I used heavy card stock to protect the slide and a small "C" clamp as a place to hook the scale at the rear of the slide to pull with the scale.  I wanted to measure the point where the slide moves out of battery and the very point right before it locks back which should equal the springs actual rating.

Some have used eyebolts and washers to made a pull...but the spring exactly as in the gun.

[sqlbullet]

So when companies like Colt supply their Delta with a 22# RS, and Rock Island ships their's with a 24# RS, are they doing this for functional reasons?  Do they ship them with heavier springs to help speed up the break-in period, expecting users to lighten the RS's later?  Or is there a more sinister motive?

Alright so I just received my new Wolff Recoil Springs for Commander sized 1911.  Some of the springs are about 1 inch longer than the stock Rock Island spring.  I'm assuming this is ok? 
Also the 22# spring I'm going to try feels stiffer than the supposed 24# one that came with the gun.  Is there a way to measure the actual weight of each? 

There is part of your answer right there.  Different suppliers have different values.  Next up is the fact that a spring "settles in" for lack of a better term.  This is an initial fatigue.  After this initial fatigue the spring will settle in for several thousand or more cycles, then begin to rapidly fatigue again.  This second window is the time to replace the spring.  A good rule is 5K rounds.

Also, at least in theory, the maker of the gun has run models and done empirical testing and determined what is the right combo for their gun.  I don't suggest changing things from the factory without good reason.

[yakmaster60]

This just kills me, why in the world are you people using a single spring set up, when DPM makes the best triple PROGRESSIVE system ever made. It is right at $100.00 and there is NO comparison of any single spring to this Tech. Look up DPM reduced recoil systems, that SOLVES any and all problems with the 10mm.

[Driftwood]

This just kills me

Then you probably won't be around here much longer making sales pitches.

why in the world are you people using a single spring set up, when DPM makes the best triple PROGRESSIVE system ever made. It is right at $100.00

Simple.  For a huge majority of 10mm owners, they work.

Look up DPM reduced recoil systems, that SOLVES any and all problems with the 10mm.

Wow, since the 10mm platform has so many problems, maybe we should trade them all in for something else that doesn't need a $100 spring system in order to function.

[sqlbullet]

yakmaster, you have six posts in this forum, and all six are sales pitches for the DPM.

Give it a rest.

[TSP45ACP]

This just kills me, why in the world are you people using a single spring set up, when DPM makes the best triple PROGRESSIVE system ever made. It is right at $100.00 and there is NO comparison of any single spring to this Tech. Look up DPM reduced recoil systems, that SOLVES any and all problems with the 10mm.

yakmaster, you have six posts in this forum, and all six are sales pitches for the DPM.

Give it a rest.

Not to beat a dead horse and no disrespect intended to the mods (sqlbullet), but the DPM system looks very much like the Sprinco Recoil Reducing guide rod that I run in all my 1911's.  With my Delta, I use it and a #20 recoil, #25 mainspring and a EGW flat bottom firing pin stop.