This Ever Happen To Anyone Here?

[Mr. AR50]

A couple of weeks ago, a guy in my neck of the woods was selling his T/C Encore 45/70 barrel dirt cheap, still boxed up. I grabbed it right away, since it sort of rounds out my own Encore big bore set, a 30'06, and a 444 Marlin, both with blued finish 15" barrels, and no muzzle brake, just like my 45/70. Yesterday I took all three Encore calibers, along with my Chrony, to the range, for a sort of informal comparison, and that's when things got interesting. I have several big bore handguns, including a 475 Linebaugh and a 500 Linebaugh, along with several 44 Magnums, and I've never been what I'd call 'recoil sensitive', even with heavy loads. On this day, all I took to the range were the Encore calibers, along with some fairly stout loads for the 06' and the 444. All I had for the 45/70 were some Buffalo Bore rounds that the guy threw in when I bought the barrel. My 444 and my 06' are actually fairly pleasant to shoot, and I expected about the same for the 45/70. The first round I touched off was a 45/70 round, the BB 430gr LFN, and to say it got my attention is an understatement! I checked the Chrony, and it showed 1989 fps. I was going to do a 5 shot string for an average fps, but when I got to #4, I became dizzy and nauseated. I rested a minute or two, felt better, started again, and around the #4 or #5 round I again felt sick. I decide to try my other two calibers, and neither the 444 or the 06' affected me in a similar manner, even though I finished off at least 60 rounds between them. I decided to try the 45/70 one last time, and this time I began to feel bad after #3. It's an outdoor range, so I don't think inhalation of burning gunpowder gasses is the problem. I will say that none of my handguns have as much perceived recoil as that particular gun does, which makes me think that it's somehow affecting my nervous system. Any thoughts/ ideas are appreciated!

[Pinsnscrews]

I have not experienced this, but others I know with the 45/70 Encore/contenders have reported the muzzle blast from full power loads having a similar effect on them. They don't shoot the heavy charged loads, and don't recommend them. As one gentleman put it, if he didn't load it for his TC, he won't shoot it in his TC.

[Mr. AR50]

Thanks for the input. I don't think it's muzzle blast, because the 06' seems to have quite a bit more than the 45/70, but the recoil, even with some of my stoutest loads, is much less than that of my 45/70 with the BB rounds that came with the barrel. I've shot BB before in my 475 and 500 Linbaughs, and while they are every bit as stout as any handloads that I've cooked up, I've never had a problem with them. Honestly, this caliber/ammo combination was harder on me than my friends S&W 500 with a 4" barrel and no brake. The recoil on the Encore seems to push the gun straight back, instead of rolling up like my revolvers, and I think this particular gun/ammo combo is hitting me just right, or wrong, as the case may be. It may be time to put muzzle brakes on a few of my guns anyway, as I've noticed that my wrists and elbows are starting to complain after a heavy session at the range.

[Geeman]

I don't have any of the big straight walled cartridges for my Encore.  My big boomers are a 338/284 wildcat, as well as a 416 Rigby.  Both have brakes and both are 16.5" pistol barrels.  You know when you touch one off, but not uncontrollable. 

Recoil is not just a simple measure.  There are several components that add up to the perceived recoil.  There is the equal but opposite for the bullet.  There is the mass of the powder leaving the end of the barrel as a jet type blast (the part diverted by a brake as a recoil reducer).  Then there is the part I believe you are having a problem with, which is the sharpness of the impulse. 

Buffalo Bore is always strong ammo.  No one says you need to shoot stuff at that level.  Play with some different stuff and see what you are comfortable with.  45/70 is a big boy, and I'd guess you may have similar experience with Buffalo Bore in the 444 Marlin.   I've always placed those two as similar in my mind.

Or you could just add a brake.  That 500 Smith does.

Greg

[my_old_glock]

...I was going to do a 5 shot string for an average fps, but when I got to #4, I became dizzy and nauseated. I rested a minute or two, felt better, started again, and around the #4 or #5 round I again felt sick. ...

... I will say that none of my handguns have as much perceived recoil as that particular gun does, which makes me think that it's somehow affecting my nervous system. Any thoughts/ ideas are appreciated!

Now you know how stun grenades work.


.

[Pinsnscrews]

when we think of "muzzle blast" we tend to think of the flash and smoke at the end of the barrel, but we rarely think of the shockwave that expands in a ball around the end of the muzzle.

[Mr. AR50]

Guys, thank you for all of your help and advice, I appreciate it. I really don't think that muzzle blast is the culprit here, but rather the severity of the felt recoil. I used to have a Freedom Arms SA chambered in 454 Casull, with a 2" barrel, and it was the epitome of muzzle blast. No, it wasn't any fun to shoot, but it never affected me the way that 45/70 did a few days ago. I've spent hundreds of hours at the range with my AR50, which is about as much muzzle blast as I've ever encountered from a firearm, with none of the ill effects that I had with my 45/70. I have a friend who says he experienced something similar when he was shooting his 460 Weatherby Magnum with some 500gr hunting loads. I've come to the conclusion that the 45/70 Buffalo Bore rounds are best saved for the next time a T-Rex wanders into my neighborhood, and I'll stick to some lighter/cheaper reloads for any 45/70 practice sessions.

[sqlbullet]

Yeah...The blast didn't seem like that much more to your eyes and ears.

Eyes and ears are sensors, and like all sensors they have finite ranges in which they provide accurate results.  Beyond that the data they collect become noise.

That 45/70 round is 50% more energy than a typical 30-06 load.  And the effects of that energy increase on a sensor are not linear, meaning a 50% increase in muzzle energy may well be measured as 200 or 300% increase in sound and pressure.  Add to that double the recoil energy being felt in your hands/arms and you were certainly.

You were getting the "bang" part of a flash bang.  It was screwing with your inner ear's ability to sense motion.  Even though it didn't "sound" or "feel" that much more, the semi-circular canals of the inner ear were telling you it was a lot more by making you dizzy and nauseous.  This isn't a sense we generally think about, it just does it's job and we stay balanced.  But in this case it was telling you that these loads had lots more concussion than they others.

[Intercooler]

Does that mean stronger/better hearing protection is needed?

[The_Shadow]

The shockwaves can traverse the body, if your mouth is open when wave hits you it can affect you differently than if it were closed.  Different velocities can have different sonic crack in the upper frequency ranges.  Guns with ported barrels and recoil brakes can have more effect on the shooter and bystanders as those gasses report in closer proximity.  One reason I don't like ported barrels.

A person's health such as sinuses being full of fluids can affect the ears and equilibrium and these fluids can collect and pass on the felt blast concussions.

In the classes we had with explosives they recommend breathing with your mouth open during the blast to equalize the pressures...

[Osageid]

Yeah...The blast didn't seem like that much more to your eyes and ears.

Eyes and ears are sensors, and like all sensors they have finite ranges in which they provide accurate results.  Beyond that the data they collect become noise.

That 45/70 round is 50% more energy than a typical 30-06 load.  And the effects of that energy increase on a sensor are not linear, meaning a 50% increase in muzzle energy may well be measured as 200 or 300% increase in sound and pressure.  Add to that double the recoil energy being felt in your hands/arms and you were certainly.

You were getting the "bang" part of a flash bang.  It was screwing with your inner ear's ability to sense motion.  Even though it didn't "sound" or "feel" that much more, the semi-circular canals of the inner ear were telling you it was a lot more by making you dizzy and nauseous.  This isn't a sense we generally think about, it just does it's job and we stay balanced.  But in this case it was telling you that these loads had lots more concussion than they others.

Very good info there, not sure of your background but I would say you have some medical background/exposure

[gandog56]

I've had extremely hard recoil, recoil that made me flinch when I pulled the trigger, but never to the point it made me sick.

[screwedby]

First, a quick question, why are you fooling around with such puny calibers?

I have a Bullberry 458 Win Mag barrel for my Encore.  I have not experienced those symptoms. 
However, I have given myself headaches with it as well as with various other 458's 45-70's and a 12 ga pump gun shooting slugs.

The 458WM with downloaded rounds is very pleasant to shoot.  Of course. The barrel weighs around 200 lbs.  Ha-ha.  I should trade this barrel, not many moose in VA.

Note, I loaded my 45-70 loads to achieve 2000fps with the lighter bullets. 

[Mr. AR50]

Thanks again for the input, guys. I suspect that you are probably right about the muzzle blast/shock wave affecting my inner ear, and thus my balance and equilibrium. I just jumped on the most obvious negative(recoil) as being the culprit, since it was much more pronounced than any muzzle blast. See, it does help to have an unbiased viewpoint to get you back on track. 

[blfuller]

Reminds me of the movie The Guns of Navarone, when the big guns were firing, the gun crews would all open their mouths and place their hands over their ears.