Unbderwood's 135 gr. Ammo #231

[Nevada Dave]

     Hello Gentlemen (and perhaps Ladies)!  I'm new to this forum (as a registered member) but I've been snooping around here for a year or so.  There's a wealth of solid information to be gleaned and I'm not ashamed to admit that I never work up a 10mm load without first checking this nifty site.  Thanks for your scientific approach . . . it compliments my own fastidious mindset.  Therefore, I've decided to officially join (smile).   I'm also the proud owner of 3 Tanfoglio-made 10mm Witnesses (2, all-steel 4.5" and a handsome 4.5" Stock II).  Even though I've been shooting & handloading for over 6 decades, I've only been introduced to the 10mm Auto since late 2013.  I love them so much that they're now my dedicated CCW's.  Heavy but Manly, none-the-less!
     I suppose I joined because I have a concern with Underwood's ammunition.  Some of you seem to be good friends with the owner so I'll try not to step on your toes and be "scientific".  Anyway, about a year ago I ordered a few boxes of their Item #231 (135 gr. Noslers).  Since I chronograph more than I target shoot or hunt, I immediately ran 5 over the screens and found some REALLY fast cartridges.  I was semi-elated at the time because I thought I had a "fast" barrel.  My first 5 rounds averaged 1,699 fps (advertised at 1,600 fps).  About 9 months ago I chronographed 5 more from a more recent purchase.  These averaged 1,568 fps which would be in line with what Underwood advertises.  Yesterday, I was chronographing pressure loads for a new load I'm working on and included a bunch of factory ammo for reference points.  Long-story-short, I touched off another "HOT" Underwood 135 gr.; this one at 1,729 fps!  I immediately knew there was a problem due to the added recoil & enormous flash/bang.  All my other "pressure" rounds & 21 test rounds were as expected (except I discovered that Longshot needs a true magnum primer and 800-X produces more pressure than Longshot at the same velocity) . . . but I digress.  The good news is that my Witness handled this errant round without a hiccup (or even a "smile") but had this round been fired on a warm summer (Nevada) day in a "generous" chamber, there might have been a catastrophic event.  I purchased this older "hot" ammo in November 2013 and they each had a Starline headstamp.  As I mentioned, I've since made another purchase but the newer lot has Underwood's headstamp.  Unfortunately, I've mixed the two lots together so I can't confirm the lot number of the older errant rounds.  I'm a safety freak so it concerns me that I might someday ignite an Underwood cartridge that blows my hand off.  Perhaps the older "hot" ammo was stuffed with 800-X at that time?  Indeed, we all know how easy it is to inadvertently throw in a few extra "cornflakes" in the case.
     Has anyone else experienced this problem with Underwood?  I stopped using Double Tap ammo (in 45 ACP) a few years ago because of this same problem.
     Thank you for this fantastic forum and for the effort you folks go through to make things "scientific"!  I'm certainly not a 10mm expert but I'd be happy to assist anyone with their handloading quandaries . . . or to find a good family law attorney (another smile).
     Best regards from Nevada, USA!

[The_Shadow]

Nevada Dave, Welcome to the form!  yep the Underwood Ammo is definitely higher impulse ammo.  It is likely that the difference is IMR800X and the newer loadings being LongShot.

The very first I tested was the 135 nosler loaded with 11.8 grains of IMR800X @ Velocity: 1738 fps from my S&W1006. 
Case Data: expansion measurement's: Diameter 0.4325" "Smiled" 0.4295" primer blown out, no ejection, case stayed in the chamber but loose.  Likely that the blown primer kicked the casing off the extractor.

In my opinion they were too hot as loaded, many who were trying to achieve the original printed IMR data of 14.5 grains found that the charges were erratic as well, this led to Hodgdon and other publications reducing the data...

Do you still have any of the Underwood 45ACP ammo?  It would be interesting to study what's inside!   

Best regards!

[Dave84]

I will say while shooting some of their FMJ target ammo that it doesn't feel quite as stout. It's still the hottest thing out there. If you have any doubts about your old nuclear ammo I would just shoot it all up on a cold Nevada day and buy some of the "tamer" stuff for carry.

[sqlbullet]

Welcome to the forum nevada dave.  Glad to have another experienced reloader here where we worship the 10mm.  Can't use a 10 right without self-stuffing some brass!

I guess I have a couple of comments, not particularly original.

I agree with you 100% that anyone buying Underwood ammo should understand that they are loaded in mass right on the ragged edge.  Due to the mathematically established statistical variations that will occur in production runs of ammunition, loading at the ragged edge ensures that some loads will be over the mark.  Combine that with a powder like 800-X which meters poorly, and you have a confluence of events which will occasionally give a round well over the mark.

On the other hand, Underwood provides two great things.  First, they satisfy a market demand for ammo that is right on the edge.  They are out of stock enough, even during "normal" times to clearly indicate that there is a sizable consumer demand for this kind of ammo.  If the people want it, they are entitled to it.  Second, Underwood and others (Swampfox, older DoubleTap) have done the 10mm a huge service by showing that it isn't just a bigger 40 S&W.  These guys loads show why we can rightly say, by comparison, it is the 40 S[hort]&W[eak].  This educates the market to the potential of the 10mm Auto, and by doing so attracts new enthusiasts.

So, caveat emptor!  Shoot Underwood only in solidly built modern handguns with fully supported chambers.  You are quite correct that touching some of these off in a Glock, or heaven forbid a Delta Elite, would have resulted in a KaBoom at the very least.  Further, this illustrates why defense ammo and hunting ammo, when hunting dangerous game, should have headroom.  You don't wanna be dealing with a kaboom related stoppage when defending your life or the lives of those precious to you.  We sometimes lambast "mainstream" mfg. for loading  180 grain JHP's to "only" 1200 or 1250 fps in 10mm.  But in reality these are exactly the velocities we should aspire to in reliable defensive ammo for the 10mm auto.

I appreciate your comments, and also appreciate the respectful tone you have used when addressing a potentially sensitive issue.  I hope we here from you often and with equal wisdom.

[The_Shadow]

Given the current market of product availability v.s. supply and demand, things have certainly placed a strain on the market place.  In a recent pull-down of the UW 180 Hornady, it showed a totally different powder.  It was very interesting to see how Kevin is trying to bring the product to the customers...
Here is that pull-down where LOVEX powder was being used...
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-180gr-hornady-xtp(112014)-pull-down/

[Rockyd]

Nevada,
One thing that can cause erratic velocity is that your slide is coming out of battery to soon. Are you still using a stock weight recoil spring? That will make a huge difference in your velocity spread on full power loads like these.

[Stunnerable]

I've only started using Underwood (and 10mm for that matter) since December 2014. Since that time I've already shot close to 1000 rounds through my Glock 29 and I haven't noticed one a renegade super power load. They all feel very consistent in the hand. I've never chronoed but seat of the pants tells me they must have changed their formula as they are extremely consistent for me.

[Geeman]

I think this was from the 150g Underwood out of a Gen4 G20.



The Tanfoglio handled these just fine.  What is an ammo manufacturer to do?  Load for the Delta Elite?  The Glock factory barrel?  The Tanfoglio pistol?

They say they Underwood are just under SAAMI max and I guess the gun manufactures need to build 'em for that level.  From what I see, Underwood has backed off a hair to keep liability in check.  Heck, I build my own now and I usually stop a hair below Underwood's level as documented by Shadow's work here.  Just cheaper, even with all new components.

Greg

[The_Shadow]

I think this was from the 150g Underwood out of a Gen4 G20.



The Tanfoglio handled these just fine.  What is an ammo manufacturer to do?  Load for the Delta Elite?  The Glock factory barrel?  The Tanfoglio pistol?

They say they Underwood are just under SAAMI max and I guess the gun manufactures need to build 'em for that level.  From what I see, Underwood has backed off a hair to keep liability in check.  Heck, I build my own now and I usually stop a hair below Underwood's level as documented by Shadow's work here. Just cheaper, even with all new components.

Greg

That right there is why I do these documentations, There will always be those who will buy the commercial stuff, but with the documentations (Thanks to all those who have participated in sending the ammo) those of us who handload can tailor loads to the way we have our guns set up!

[tommac919]

They say they Underwood are just under SAAMI max and I guess the gun manufactures need to build 'em for that level.  From what I see, Underwood has backed off a hair to keep liability in check.  Heck, I build my own now and I usually stop a hair below Underwood's level as documented by Shadow's work here.  Just cheaper, even with all new components.

Yes, kudo's to Shadow's dedication... the same on my new , slightly lower, version of Underwood 180 xtp.

[HammersD]

I think this was from the 150g Underwood out of a Gen4 G20.



The Tanfoglio handled these just fine.  What is an ammo manufacturer to do?  Load for the Delta Elite?  The Glock factory barrel?  The Tanfoglio pistol?

They say they Underwood are just under SAAMI max and I guess the gun manufactures need to build 'em for that level.  From what I see, Underwood has backed off a hair to keep liability in check.  Heck, I build my own now and I usually stop a hair below Underwood's level as documented by Shadow's work here.  Just cheaper, even with all new components.

Greg

I own a Gen3 G20 and know first hand the factory barrel is way too under supported for the hotter UW stuff.  I purchased LW and Storm Lake barrels to compare to the factory.  the newer production LW I got had just about the same delinquent amount of case support, although the LW had a tighter chamber.   The older LW barrels, as documented by a plethora of online photos and videos, had essentially fully supported barrels.  the Storm Lake turned out to the only fully supported barrel of the three and has the same chamber diameter as the factory barrel.

In looking at those smily cases, this looks to be a situation of factory barrel lacking enough case support combined with rounds right on, or slightly over, the edge of safe pressure.  I never took any photos of brass using the factory barrel, but of the brass I found (UW notoriously flies very far even in an indoor range), there never was any smiles.  I was using the factory recoil spring and the pistol was out of the box stock.

just my two cents.
Jon