Penetration in Ballistic Gelatin

[Panzer]

I have to respectfully disagree about "FAILURE", the Gold Dot bullets are designed to work within a specific velocity parameter.  Any thing exceeding or short of the design parameters does not constitute failure.  Even Hornady has set velocity ranges for the XTP line as well.  This can also be seen in suggested loading data tables for most JHP designs and Self defensive situations call for strict protocols to maintain performance to meet that criterior.  We as handloaders push the limits for different reasons, some for hunting at longer distances and still have acceptable bullet performance.

Because Underwood exceeded the Gold Dot bullet design velocity by producing ammo at 1300+ fps, this allowed the over expansion and jacket seperation as a secondary affect is not a failure of the bullet as designed by Speer.  Speer has bullets designed for short barreled guns which do not produce enough velocity for standard velocity projectiles to expand properly!

Sorry, I thought that is what you meant, is the bullet failed. I was relying more on the comments of tn9outdoors video, simply because I do not know truly for myself. Now as to wounding human tissue, that I understand. I agree with what you are saying, I think the 135-155 gr. would do better and penetrate as deep as the 180 did. Sorry for the mix up.

Would the Underwood's ammo have done it's job by exceeding the bullet's design specification?  Yes it would have done a remarkable job but may have passed thru the subject...

[Panzer]

Lost my post to The_Shadow, but I basically said I agree with you about the faliure point, I was going off the comment made by tn9outdorrs. Getting into this end of shooting is new to me, so I am learning a lot. Althought I do know the human body well and if that had been a body, well I don't think they would be around to speak of it.

I now think a better option would be the 135-155 grain loads, as I don't think they would have over penetrated as the 180 did.

[pacapcop]

Pike County for bear 4949shooter.And your Jersey.Ill be Stripe Bass fishin soon,Island Beach,Point Pleasant,Cape May.

[REDLINE]

I now think a better option would be the 135-155 grain loads, as I don't think they would have over penetrated as the 180 did.

On top of that I also suspect they would do even more damage specifically within the penetration depth of the heart and lungs.

[DM1906]

Well, if we knew what we'd have to shoot, and under what conditions, we'd carry a mag for every occasion.

Put your gel behind a car door and shoot it.  Window up, then down.  Add a forearm, and some winter clothes.  Maybe a thick layer of leather (belt/holster/bomber jacket).

Gel tells you nothing, but what a bullet does.... in gel.  Real SD targets aren't gel.  Regardless of how "realistic" you make it, we aren't confronting the fat, middle aged SOB in a speedo.

If your bullet doesn't do the same or as well, bare gel, as well as through a 2x4, 4 layers denim, latigo, and a belt buckle or check book, it might as well be a 9mm.  There's a REAL reason the FBI were looking for more, and went in the direction of the 10mm.  And, it wasn't a 135 gr. bullet going fast.  They already had that, and it got them killed.

[Panzer]

Well, if we knew what we'd have to shoot, and under what conditions, we'd carry a mag for every occasion.

Put your gel behind a car door and shoot it.  Window up, then down.  Add a forearm, and some winter clothes.  Maybe a thick layer of leather (belt/holster/bomber jacket).

Gel tells you nothing, but what a bullet does.... in gel.  Real SD targets aren't gel.  Regardless of how "realistic" you make it, we aren't confronting the fat, middle aged SOB in a speedo.

If your bullet doesn't do the same or as well, bare gel, as well as through a 2x4, 4 layers denim, latigo, and a belt buckle or check book, it might as well be a 9mm.  There's a REAL reason the FBI were looking for more, and went in the direction of the 10mm.  And, it wasn't a 135 gr. bullet going fast.  They already had that, and it got them killed.

I understand what you are saying, but how can we explain the excellent street record the 125gr. 357 magnum round that goes really fast too.

Second, do you yourself favor the 180gr. load?

[sqlbullet]

I can't speak for DM1906.

I carry a 180 grain load for personal defense.  Of course, it is not unusual here in the mountain west for a run to the convenience store to un-expectedly end in a hike in bear country.

I have considered moving to the 135 grain load.  But, to be honest that is really driven by how cheap I can buy Nosler 135 gr JHP's.  And, I have largely decided against the move.

[REDLINE]

Well, if we knew what we'd have to shoot, and under what conditions, we'd carry a mag for every occasion.

Put your gel behind a car door and shoot it.  Window up, then down.  Add a forearm, and some winter clothes.  Maybe a thick layer of leather (belt/holster/bomber jacket).

Gel tells you nothing, but what a bullet does.... in gel.  Real SD targets aren't gel.  Regardless of how "realistic" you make it, we aren't confronting the fat, middle aged SOB in a speedo.

If your bullet doesn't do the same or as well, bare gel, as well as through a 2x4, 4 layers denim, latigo, and a belt buckle or check book, it might as well be a 9mm.  There's a REAL reason the FBI were looking for more, and went in the direction of the 10mm.  And, it wasn't a 135 gr. bullet going fast.  They already had that, and it got them killed.

Yes and no.  Gel does tell you something.  It puts all bullets/cartridges on an even playing field toward honest comparison, one to another.

And no, the 115gr Silvertips did not get any FBI Agents killed.  Also, the FBI was not just looking for more either.  They would have been happy to stick with the 45 Auto after all their testing, but the 10mm wussy load they chose did do a hair better in the accuracy department, and since they needed all new platforms anyway, they simply decided to give the 10mm a whirl.  Then Federal and S&W came along offering the same ballistics in a smaller package and the 10mm got dumped in favor of that (40 Short and Wimpy), and the rest is history.

[Panzer]

As for myself I bought 500 rounds of Underwoods 135's and 150 of 155 grain bonded to try. Yes, bear country does really need that 180 load. I am really looking at carrying the 135's as my logic based on the 357 magnum performance and street record, a little bit more weight at 1600 fps has to atleast equal the performace of said 357.

However, I think it will exceed the preformance of the famed 357 round. I have learned a lot on this forum, thanks to all who engage in the discussion.

[DM1906]

Well, if we knew what we'd have to shoot, and under what conditions, we'd carry a mag for every occasion.

Put your gel behind a car door and shoot it.  Window up, then down.  Add a forearm, and some winter clothes.  Maybe a thick layer of leather (belt/holster/bomber jacket).

Gel tells you nothing, but what a bullet does.... in gel.  Real SD targets aren't gel.  Regardless of how "realistic" you make it, we aren't confronting the fat, middle aged SOB in a speedo.

If your bullet doesn't do the same or as well, bare gel, as well as through a 2x4, 4 layers denim, latigo, and a belt buckle or check book, it might as well be a 9mm.  There's a REAL reason the FBI were looking for more, and went in the direction of the 10mm.  And, it wasn't a 135 gr. bullet going fast.  They already had that, and it got them killed.

I understand what you are saying, but how can we explain the excellent street record the 125gr. 357 magnum round that goes really fast too.

Second, do you yourself favor the 180gr. load?

There's no substitute for pure brute force.  And yes, I do favor the 180.

[4949shooter]

Pike County for bear 4949shooter.And your Jersey.Ill be Stripe Bass fishin soon,Island Beach,Point Pleasant,Cape May.

We might be looking at the same bears, Lol..

[uz2bUSMC]

I now think a better option would be the 135-155 grain loads, as I don't think they would have over penetrated as the 180 did.

The 135's will basically blow up, you'll have very shallow penetration. Better served as an HD loading if you are living in an appartment perhaps. The bullet has a better chance of detroying itself on the structure should you miss your target.

The 155's can frag badly as well at their velocities from a G20. I personally don't mind a bit of frag but I don't want something that will totally destroy itself on a hard barrier either (SD type scenario). I like the 155grn-165grn out of the G29. If I eventually go to the slightly extened Storm Lake bbl for my G29, and it's reliable enough for carry, the lowest I would go is 165grn because of the velocity gain (SD). It will still probably frag a bit.

[DM1906]

Well, if we knew what we'd have to shoot, and under what conditions, we'd carry a mag for every occasion.

Put your gel behind a car door and shoot it.  Window up, then down.  Add a forearm, and some winter clothes.  Maybe a thick layer of leather (belt/holster/bomber jacket).

Gel tells you nothing, but what a bullet does.... in gel.  Real SD targets aren't gel.  Regardless of how "realistic" you make it, we aren't confronting the fat, middle aged SOB in a speedo.

If your bullet doesn't do the same or as well, bare gel, as well as through a 2x4, 4 layers denim, latigo, and a belt buckle or check book, it might as well be a 9mm.  There's a REAL reason the FBI were looking for more, and went in the direction of the 10mm.  And, it wasn't a 135 gr. bullet going fast.  They already had that, and it got them killed.

Yes and no.  Gel does tell you something.  It puts all bullets/cartridges on an even playing field toward honest comparison, one to another.

And no, the 115gr Silvertips did not get any FBI Agents killed.  Also, the FBI was not just looking for more either.  They would have been happy to stick with the 45 Auto after all their testing, but the 10mm wussy load they chose did do a hair better in the accuracy department, and since they needed all new platforms anyway, they simply decided to give the 10mm a whirl.  Then Federal and S&W came along offering the same ballistics in a smaller package and the 10mm got dumped in favor of that (40 Short and Wimpy), and the rest is history.

I am correct in what I say.  Shooting gel, or any other test medium, is only the most basic means of comparison.  It simulates unobstructed animal tissue, but poorly for use as a baseline for practical use.  General live tissue density and composition (muscle vs. fat, for example) vary so greatly, you cannot expect to see the same results.  Gel is only a test medium, and can only be applied to practical use if used for projectile capture after the bullet has passed through the real test medium (obstructions).  The projectiles can then be examined for post-performance, but still in a very basic sense.

I wasn't referring to the 9mm specifically, but the previous, less-powerful calibers available as a whole.  They were inadequate, and yes, they did result in dead agents and innocents.  Stopping power results since the adoption of the .40 greatly improved.  It's a statistical fact, although not entirely attributed to the weapon upgrade alone.  Other changes were made at the same time, such as training and tactics, so how much weight the weapon bares is not specifically known.

No, they (I) wouldn't have been happy sticking with the .45ACP.  It was inadequate, according to the test standards.  Only the 10mm (in reduced power form), with the .357 very close behind, succeeded to meet all the test criteria.  The FBI didn't specify the 10mm, 200 gr. bullet at 1200 FPS.  Norma did.  That's what they developed and offered.  In the end, it wasn't the cartridge that wasn't accepted by the FBI, it was the platform.  The .40 S&W was later developed and introduced in more familiar and reliable platforms, based on the 645/4506.  It was a natural transition, and a no-brainer at the time.

[Panzer]

I now think a better option would be the 135-155 grain loads, as I don't think they would have over penetrated as the 180 did.

The 135's will basically blow up, you'll have very shallow penetration. Better served as an HD loading if you are living in an appartment perhaps. The bullet has a better chance of detroying itself on the structure should you miss your target.

The 155's can frag badly as well at their velocities from a G20. I personally don't mind a bit of frag but I don't want something that will totally destroy itself on a hard barrier either (SD type scenario). I like the 155grn-165grn out of the G29. If I eventually go to the slightly extened Storm Lake bbl for my G29, and it's reliable enough for carry, the lowest I would go is 165grn because of the velocity gain (SD). It will still probably frag a bit.

I did get three boxes of 155grn, gold dots. In your opinion, these would be a better for (SD) out of a G20sf?

[sqlbullet]

Based on uz2bUSMC's statements above I would bet he is going to vote more like 180 from a 4.6" Glock 20 barrel.

But, ultimately it is what you would bet your life on when it comes to carry ammo.

I don't view the FBI's testing protocol the same way many people do I think.  I don't see that they really set out to duplicate the results of shooting tissue and bone in a living organism.  I think they set up a standard and repeatable protocol against which different rounds could be measured.  They created the protocol with the types of barriers a bullet may have to breech in mind.  Those barriers are easily replicated, and so the are.  But the gelatin is just a medium which does provide expansion and a basis for comparison.

I carry 180's currently, from Buffalo Bore.  I have some 200's on order that will probably become my defensive load for the next year.  I do load 135's in the safe gun that my wife would use for a threat in the home.  I have a variety of considerations that make my choices unique, and I am sure you do to.