What is true 10mm ammo and what would be considered 10mm +P

[Sean Thornton]

It seems that most of the regular ammunition companies such as Federal, Remington, Blazer, Hornady, etc. load 10mm ammo on the lighter side. Where Underwood, Double Tap and others load on the +P or nuclear side. Is there a consensus on what constitutes what 10mm should be and what +P should be? I ask because I do not want to shoot .40 S&W ballistic ammo in my 10mm but then I do not want to go nuclear +P either.

What would you suggest as 10mm ammo for the following bullet weights concerning velocity and muzzle energy?
155
165
180
200

What would be +P 10mm ammo for the same bullet weights?
155
165
180
200

Thank you for any information. Also looking at buying a Kimber Stainless Target II or a Dan Wesson Razorback. Is the +P ammo safe in either of those?

[tommac919]

this spreadsheet will show almost all you want... sorted by weights too.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=4

[The_Shadow]

Hello Sean Thornton, There a few things to consider here;
First, is the length of gun barrel, 5" BBL was a usual standard, this would be a pressure barrel that may not have included the chamber as part of that measurement.  A semi auto guns' barrels include the chamber as measured from the breech face, so right off the bat a 10mm 5" barrel is only 4" if you follow me here.

Second, is smokeless powders, there have been many newer powder formulations introduced since the 10mm was developed, so too many have also been discontinued.  That being said finding a balance of performance, velocity as it relates to actual pressure developed is the key to having cartridges that are accurate, with velocities developed while having safe pressures to function well in the given firearm.

Third, is the way the firearm is setup, can make a difference in the ammo's performance and the way it handles the higher impulse ammo from a safety standpoint.  Guns like heavy revolvers and very strong fixed actions like the T/C are capable of handling the extreme loads better.

Fourth, This chart although it is getting old does show some load potentials, some of the Nuclear Stuff have been exceeded with careful loading and firearms setup for the ammo.  BE WARNED, not all firearms can handle the extreme impulse, some brass may fail trying to get to these levels.



I hope this helps you grasp an understanding of what is possible...But it is the end user, that needs to understand what limitations and precautions should be adhered to...

[sqlbullet]

First off, lets dispel the concept about +P ammo.

true +P designations are recognized by SAAMI and have actual pressure specs associated with them.  They aren't over-pressure, they are loaded to a higher pressure specification.  Such increases in pressure could safely occur since metallurgy has changed alot since 1900 when the 38 special, 9mm Luger and 45 ACP were originally designed. 

There is no +P designation for 10mm ammo.  And there have only been incremental advances in the quality of steel since 1984 when it was introduced, so there isn't likely to be one soon.  The only real advance isn't one at all.  Some guns (Delta Elite) don't have proper case head support and therefore aren't really ideal for full pressure 10mm loads.

Underwood, Buffalo Bore, et al, load their ammo right to the edge of the SAAMI spec.  They are not over-pressure, but they leave no headroom for error either.  And they have the occasional issue in a firearm that doesn't provide full case head support, as they note on their respective websites.

The gold standard for true 10mm in my book has always been a 200 grain FMJ bullet at 1200 fps.  There have been some significant advances in the available powder since 1984, which allows a 200 jhp to reach beyond that mark and stay within SAAMI spec for the cartridge.

The idea of "watered down" ammo is interesting to me as well.  Suppose you have a 180 grain JHP .400 bullet that will mushroom perfectly in ballistics gel, reaching 15" of penetration with expansion to .750" and a sizeble permanent wound cavity when loaded to 1000 fps.  Suppose the same bullet grenades when loaded to 1200 fps, penetrating only 9" with little or no permanent wound channel, and only having fragments reach past the first few inches.   Is the 1000 fps load with devastating terminal ballistics "watered down" compared to the 1200 fps load that just makes an ugly flesh wound?

Blazer makes cheap ammo.  Federal, Remington and Hornady, especially in recent years, are making ammo that is pretty well suited to the bullets they are loading.  Yes, they fall short of the absolute velocities the 10mm makes possible.  But, the bullets often don't have as good terminal performance at absolute max 10mm velocities.

I personally like 10mm loads that favor heavier bullets.  The 10mm can push them to higher energies and velocities without getting into the explosive fragmentation velocity range.  I cast a lot of bullets because they are cheap, and I can control how hard and malleable they are.

In general I answer your questions by looking up Underwood's ammo listed velocity.  He has put in the time and effort in testing to drive 10mm as fast as it can go within spec.  I will generally cross check to Buffalo Bore, and generally expect to see BB loads to be 5% or so slower than Underwood.

For me then full power 10mm is:

200 grain = 1200-1250 fps
180 grain = 1275-1325 fps
165 grain = 1350-1400 fps
155 grain = 1450-1500 fps
135 grain = 1550-1600 fps

You can run the individually if  you want, but that puts energy between 650 lb-ft for the heavy bullets and 770 lb-ft in the light bullets.

[Sean Thornton]

Thank you all for the information. It is very helpful. Now I am looking to add another 10mm either the DW Razorback or the Kimber Stainless Target II.

[Buckeye 50]

Sean;

Have you ever considered a Glock 20 Gen 4 full size?  I always said I would NEVER "lower" myself to own a Glock - EVER!!  This is the first gun in 10mm I ever shot.  I bought it a month later.  NOW, it is the only gun in my inventory I will NEVER part with, AND to make things "worse" I am looking at buying a new Glock 29 (10mm) Gen 4.  I must be out of my frickin' mind?? 

I am seriously impressed with the engineering simplicity and reliability of their products.  I am also WAY impressed with Dan Wesson products, personally somewhat under-impressed with Kimber products (just me, I am not trying to be negative on them).  I have my Glock 20 fairly souped up with a KKM match grade barrel, custom Ghost Trigger and Trijicon HD night sights.  By the way, my Glock 20 came with 3 high capacity 15 round magazines.  I am using it for all of my tactical training - I love to watch the faces of the other students when I start shooting!! 

Just some food for thought, from a former true "gun snob."

Pat

[Sean Thornton]

Sean;

Have you ever considered a Glock 20 Gen 4 full size?  I always said I would NEVER "lower" myself to own a Glock - EVER!!  This is the first gun in 10mm I ever shot.  I bought it a month later.  NOW, it is the only gun in my inventory I will NEVER part with, AND to make things "worse" I am looking at buying a new Glock 29 (10mm) Gen 4.  I must be out of my frickin' mind?? 

I am seriously impressed with the engineering simplicity and reliability of their products.  I am also WAY impressed with Dan Wesson products, personally somewhat under-impressed with Kimber products (just me, I am not trying to be negative on them).  I have my Glock 20 fairly souped up with a KKM match grade barrel, custom Ghost Trigger and Trijicon HD night sights.  By the way, my Glock 20 came with 3 high capacity 15 round magazines.  I am using it for all of my tactical training - I love to watch the faces of the other students when I start shooting!! 

Just some food for thought, from a former true "gun snob."



Pat

Thanks for the comments. I do have a Glock 20 Gen 3 and have several hundreds of rounds though it. However it is still stock factory gun. I have been thinking about getting a 6 inch barrel for it but not sure which one to get. I was looking to buy a second 10mm.

[Buckeye 50]

Sean;

I have shot both a Wolfe and KKM barrel.  They are both great choices as are Storm Lake and Bar-Sto.  Probably no bad choice here.  The one I went with was the KKM.  I am 100% satisfied and would buy another in a heartbeat.  It was a true, "drop-in" replacement.  As someone said, these barrels even "look" good and high quality.

Pat

[pacapcop]

I carry my G20 Gen 3 with a Wolff Steel Guide Rod and 22lb Spring. Nothing but Full Power, that being Underwood  180 at 1300 XTP. No compromise.

[Buddy10mm]

I was just reading this and I have to say: this reminds me why I like the 10mm.  Look at that range of performance!  In a 10mm handgun, those "FBI" loads are very controllable.  The "medium" loads are great Self Defense rounds.  Personally, my interest tops out (except on rare occasions) in the "Full Power" loads.  But the nuclear ones are interesting on occasion.  Whenever anyone asks why I like the 10mm, I just walk through the range of the performance options.  LOVE THIS ROUND!

[Intercooler]

this spreadsheet will show almost all you want... sorted by weights too.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=4

I put the power sheet on the 7th tab over. I may have slightly modified it from the original version.

[halfglocked]

[T :))uote author=Buckeye 50 link=topic=3354.msg36597#msg36597 date=1414806517]
Sean;

Have you ever considered a Glock 20 Gen 4 full size?  I always said I would NEVER "lower" myself to own a Glock - EVER!!  This is the first gun in 10mm I ever shot.  I bought it a month later.  NOW, it is the only gun in my inventory I will NEVER part with, AND to make things "worse" I am looking at buying a new Glock 29 (10mm) Gen 4.  I must be out of my frickin' mind?? 

I am seriously impressed with the engineering simplicity and reliability of their products.  I am also WAY impressed with Dan Wesson products, personally somewhat under-impressed with Kimber products (just me, I am not trying to be negative on them).  I have my Glock 20 fairly souped up with a KKM match grade barrel, custom Ghost Trigger and Trijicon HD night sights.  By the way, my Glock 20 came with 3 high capacity 15 round magazines.  I am.  using it for all of my tactical training - I love to watch the faces of the other students when I start shooting!! 

Just some food for thought, from a former true "gun snob."

Pat
[/quote]

  This hits so dang close to my heart ,I have had my early Gen 3 G17 since '97 and it is bone stock and I never had a thought of doing any mods to it ,then I get my new G20sf  last year,I got a single stage  press  20# ss rsa from brassstacker, a Ghost edge trigger. Connecticut  and Ghost  edge spring  kit Ghost maritime  firing pin spring cup,polished  all trigger contact  points green laser light  combo.The more I have done the more I like the way it shoots !

[rw]

Sean;

Have you ever considered a Glock 20 Gen 4 full size?  I always said I would NEVER "lower" myself to own a Glock - EVER!!  This is the first gun in 10mm I ever shot.  I bought it a month later.  NOW, it is the only gun in my inventory I will NEVER part with, AND to make things "worse" I am looking at buying a new Glock 29 (10mm) Gen 4.  I must be out of my frickin' mind?? 

I am seriously impressed with the engineering simplicity and reliability of their products.  I am also WAY impressed with Dan Wesson products, personally somewhat under-impressed with Kimber products (just me, I am not trying to be negative on them).  I have my Glock 20 fairly souped up with a KKM match grade barrel, custom Ghost Trigger and Trijicon HD night sights.  By the way, my Glock 20 came with 3 high capacity 15 round magazines.  I am using it for all of my tactical training - I love to watch the faces of the other students when I start shooting!! 

Just some food for thought, from a former true "gun snob."

Pat

Man, that sounds like me with my gen 3 20.. I will probably be buried with that thing. There's 3 pistols besides what I inherited from my grandfather I will never sell, that gen 3 20.. A gen 3 23 and my ruger 22/45. I shoot those 3 so well that I could sell off the others and not really miss them at all.

[PsTaN]

Very informative thread. I especially like the chart, Shadow.

PsTaN

[climb14er]

As someone new to the 10mm platform, though I've been around pistols and firearms my whole life, this thread is EXCELLENT!

The chart (and thread) have given me a much clearer understanding of the ammo loads and what works best with the pistols, and in my case a Glock 20SF.

For the time being, I've broken-in the G20 with the stock barrel. I coupled this with both the stock captive recoil spring... and I substituted it with a Wolf 22# spring and guide rod. I've got NIB Lone Wolf 10mm and .40 S&W standard length barrels in 'reserve'. I may sell them and just stick with the standard Glock barrel. Or I may keep them.

The 10mm has been a real learning experience. What will work in the city/on the road traveling, for Self Defense and what will work for the back country, against real critters, for which the pistol was in reality bought for... is a series of learning lessons.

Honestly, this has been the most 'intriguing' pistol and caliber I've ever worked with. It's kind of 'captivated' me to say the least.